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Printrbot Talk Forum • View topic - CAD Software for Beginners

CAD Software for Beginners

Discussions about CAD use and designing

CAD Software for Beginners

Postby JamesFloydKelly » 2012-Jan-Tue-09-Jan

I'd like to start putting together a list of CAD software that would be suitable for novices. We can later break out individual software apps that show promise or are popular among beginners into their own threads complete with tutorials and such, but for now, I'd like to ask that this thread be used just to provide software names and website/links so that novices don't have to hunt through a long discussion looking for software suggestions. If you want to discuss a specific CAD app, please break it off into a separate thread so we can talk details there.

So, as a start, I'd like to point everyone over to tinkercad.com -- I've played with it, even printed out the small skull button. It's got some very basic tutorials for creating models, so check it out if you're really just starting out. It's got a very limited forum and knowledge base, but I imagine it will grow as more users find it. Doesn't work well on a Mac's Safari browser, but Chrome or Firefox are fine. Windows users are good to go.

TinkerCad
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby JamesFloydKelly » 2012-Jan-Tue-10-Jan

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby Dick Brewster » 2012-Jan-Tue-11-Jan

There is a link to the RepRap Wiki list of CAD software with brief descriptions below. Some of it well beyond the beginner level but there are some suitable for beginners.
One thing to keep in mind is that the CAD package that is best for beginners might not be the best package to spend your time learning. Look for one that's easy to get started in but has the ability to do more advanced work that you might want to do later.

This list is by no means complete.
http://reprap.org/wiki/Useful_Software_Packages

Contents
1 2D and 3D CAD software
1.1 Open-source software
1.1.1 OpenSCAD
1.1.2 Art of Illusion
1.1.3 Blender
1.1.4 BlenderCAD
1.1.5 BRL-CAD
1.1.6 FreeCAD
1.1.7 HeeksCAD
1.1.8 QCAD
1.1.9 Inkscape
1.1.10 PythonOCC
1.1.11 Wings3D
1.1.12 K3D
1.2 Unknown licence
1.2.1 AutoQ3D
1.2.2 Archimedes
1.3 Closed source
1.3.1 Autodesk Inventor (Student Version)
1.3.2 Autodesk Inventor Fusion
1.3.3 Cheetah3D
1.3.4 CoCreate
1.3.5 Google Sketchup
1.3.6 iTracer
1.3.7 Rhino
1.3.8 Moment of Inspiration (MoI 3D)
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby JamesFloydKelly » 2012-Jan-Tue-16-Jan

"One thing to keep in mind is that the CAD package that is best for beginners might not be the best package to spend your time learning."

Totally agree, but the list you've provided might be a bit overwhelming to novices looking for something super-simple. Yes, you need to be careful about spending too much time on an inferior CAD app, but I'm hoping we can provide a short list here of the most basic tools. The two I provided are browser-based and easy to figure out... most of your list are apps that I do not believe true novices would find all that helpful... mostly intimidating, IMO.

Jim
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby Dick Brewster » 2012-Jan-Tue-19-Jan

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby TheGrum » 2012-Jan-Tue-20-Jan

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby trth » 2012-Sep-Mon-22-Sep

I currently use SolidWorks 2011 for my 3D CAD projects. I pretty much learned it on my own with the use of forums, and the very helpful tutorials that come with the software. The tutorials that come with it have step by step directions, and if you can't find the button in the toolbars you can click the icon in the directions and the actual button will start flashing. The program is good for beginners and you can grow in it as the capabilities are pretty vast. In fact, their surfacing has been getting much better since they were acquired by Dassault who also owns Catia, which is an extremely powerful CAD program (not necessary unless you are designing entire vehicles). The only downside is SW costs a pretty chunk of change. If you are a student you can get a student version for much cheaper, but it expires after 6-12 months (been a while since I was a student).
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby plexus » 2012-Sep-Tue-01-Sep

I am a total novice and very motivated to learn 3D for the purposes of print. i should say i have been a computer user since 1976 and am no stranger to figuring out user interfaces. user interface design is my career and has been for the last 17 years. :D i was directed to Blender. I immediately could see the UI was all about workflow. but not at all about learnability. it appears what it gives up in learnability it gains in efficiency. but way beyond my patience to learn it. so i abandoned it. sketchup is ok but not powerful enough to commit to. i have an immediate project i am using a benchmark for evaluating 3D apps. then i remembered i downloaded a free version of DAZ3D hexagon. this was way more like I was thinking of. the UI is learnable if you experience with other 2D CAD apps even like photoshop. i am still learning 3D basics in terms of how geometries work together. i am trying to knock out a hex hole for a nut in a rectangular piece and i haven't figured out how to do it yet. but that's my crux at the moment.

i also discovered AUTOQ3D which runs on iphone/ipad. i have it on both and its a different more primitive approach but it looks like it could be powerful once learned. very simple. exports stl and so could be a cool mobile design solution. so i am spending time on that.

so: DAZ3D Hexagon and AUTOQ3D

ps. Hexagon is still free from DAZ.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby mikemwa53 » 2012-Sep-Tue-03-Sep

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby moltenplastic » 2012-Sep-Tue-23-Sep

Gang,

This weekend I bought Cubify Invent. This is a repackaged version of Alibre design xpress, with soem features missing. This software is parametric, and was designed specifically for 3d printing.

The import and export formats are limited, but the software is VERY intuitive and powerful. It can import SAT, STP, DXG, SLDPRT formats, and can save in the proprietary format .FUN, or export as an stl.

The software is a full fledged CAD program, written specifically for people like us.

Go check out the videos on Youtube and at www.cubify.com

Best regards.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby eddiema » 2012-Sep-Tue-23-Sep

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby eddiema » 2012-Sep-Tue-23-Sep

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby mikemwa53 » 2012-Sep-Wed-02-Sep

eddiema....I like that way better. It also lets you position the hex anyway you want to. There are so many things that can be done, so many ways to do them and sooooo much to learn.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby jr57k » 2012-Sep-Wed-07-Sep

If you are loing for free CAD software that's pretty straightforward, I've found that FreeCAD is my go to CAD program. OpenSCAD is decent as well. I use all the professional 3d modeling tools at work, 3dsMax, Maya, Zform, mud box..... Etc. and I can say that a modeling tool is NOT what I would recommend for this application. For that reason Blender is out.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby eddiema » 2012-Sep-Wed-08-Sep

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby plexus » 2012-Sep-Wed-10-Sep

I guess my problem is just understanding basic 3D CAD concepts. it seems once you know 3D CAD you can move around apps easier. thanks for the sketchup tricks but i want to focus on DAZ Hexagon as it seems full featured. i am afraid if I commit to Sketchup I will end up wanting more and have to re-learn a new app.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby Mooselake » 2012-Sep-Wed-14-Sep

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby trth » 2012-Sep-Fri-13-Sep

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby trth » 2012-Sep-Fri-13-Sep

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby dataway » 2012-Nov-Fri-16-Nov

I did not see Cubify Invent on the list ... It is very easy to use and is geared towards 3D printing ....

http://cubify.com/products/cubify_invent/index.aspx
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby plexus » 2012-Nov-Sat-00-Nov

yep its mentioned in the tread earlier on. i bought it and use it. it suits my style of creating. i had considered the various flavours of alibre but pro was the only one that made sense for all the extra import export formats. im not going to spend $1000 and it wont import Cubify Invent FUN files. there really not a lot of othet major additions to pro. at least to me.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby holmes4 » 2012-Dec-Sat-20-Dec

I don't see that Cubify Invent can import STL files, though it can export them. Am I missing something?
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby plexus » 2012-Dec-Mon-22-Dec

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby Warren_3Deee » 2012-Dec-Tue-23-Dec

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby holmes4 » 2012-Dec-Wed-20-Dec

Thanks - I had Sketchup working for this. Just thought I could use Invent to modify existing things. I understand now. Invent looks like a very nice creation tool.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby eddiema » 2013-Jan-Sun-22-Jan

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby plexus » 2013-Jan-Sun-22-Jan

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby eddiema » 2013-Jan-Sun-23-Jan

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby plexus » 2013-Jan-Mon-00-Jan

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan

At work, I used AutoCAD - but that's prohibitively expensive for hobbyist use. On a friend's recommendation, I purchased Alibre Personal Edition ($200). I have found the learning curve to be unexpectedly steep, and the program is at times quite frustrating. For example, I wanted to copy a feature from one sketch into another completely independent one (to make mating parts). When I pasted the previous parts into the new drawing, they looked fine but they were all "disconnected" and I had to one-by-one erase and redraw every line. But maybe I was not using the right work method.

That said, the program is really not too bad, and I am not looking for any other program to use instead. I'll keep plugging away at developing the expertise.

I looked at the "Cubify Invent" tutorial, and it is exactly the same program as Alibre, but without some features. For example, Alibre PE gives you the ability to make "Drawings" of your Parts, in standard engineering format, properly scaled, with dimensions. I'm not sure what other differences there might be.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby plexus » 2013-Jan-Wed-17-Jan

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby aerogeek » 2013-Feb-Sat-09-Feb

If you are a student it would be worthwhile to dip into SolidWorks and if it still exists Pro Engineer. If I remember the student license for pro engineer was only £50 or so.

Sketch up is good and can do things very easily but feels also a bit restrictive.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby ivymike1031 » 2013-Feb-Sun-00-Feb

Pro-e wildfire 4 was, i think, the last student/home version that was available...now theyve gone to Creo, and you cant get a perpetual home license for a reasonable price. You can get Creo elements for free, but it is a direct modeling tool (non parametric) so I wouldnt bother...but if you were going to use google sketchup then Creo Elements would be a good alternative.

Im glad I still have a home license of WF4...but I suspect I wont be able to get license keys to move it to my next computer.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners, life after TinkerCad

Postby 3dmm » 2013-Apr-Mon-19-Apr

I am preparing for life after TinkerCad... I found TinkerCad to be the easiest way to import .stl files, make edits, and export back to .stl and never need to know what boolean meant... So after about 20 hours of trying to simply shave off a few mm of a puzzle piece from Thingiverse, I have found a workaround which uses Invent. Import your .stl into FreeCAD. From the part menu, choose "create shape from mesh". Then export to .step file. Import your .step file into Invent and you are in business.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby chickenbisket » 2013-Apr-Mon-21-Apr

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby ivymike1031 » 2013-Apr-Tue-10-Apr

Pro E is now called Creo Parametric, and last I checked they had done away with "home use" licenses but still offered student licenses for about US $200/yr.

Creo Elements is available free to anyone, but it is not a parametric design tool so it is of little use in my opinion...maybe if I was doing animations or something.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby rsilvers » 2013-Apr-Mon-19-Apr

I would just see if you qualify for the student version of Solidworks.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby halley » 2013-Apr-Tue-11-Apr

My opinion is that unless you're planning to make a lot of money back on the skill, it's never a good idea to get into those "special student price" deals for software. The companies offer this like drug dealers offer samples. They hope graduates go to companies who will pay their exorbitant prices. There are more and more free/open options that give the most important 80% of the functionality.

Unfortunately, CAD is still a bit of a closed market.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby plexus » 2013-Apr-Tue-11-Apr

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby allanonmage » 2013-Jun-Wed-15-Jun

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Jun-Wed-17-Jun

Parametric means that you can make some dimension in your part be "programmed" either by a variable that you enter by hand, or by a mathematical relationship to another dimension in the part.

So, for example, if you wanted to have a cube with a pyramid on top, you could define the height of the pyramid to be a function of the height of the cube. Then they would stay in the same ratio (scale) if you changed the size of the cube. That's just a very elementary example. I've read where someone developed a specialized theraputic glove for soldiers whose hands had been damaged in combat. You feed in something like 18 measurements from the soldier's hand, and it develops a perfect 3D model of a custom-fit glove for that soldier.

Of course to use a parametric model, you need to be using the same or compatible software in order to make changes.

BTW, I'm using Geomagic Alibre Personal Edition. It's not free, but it's much less expensive than the full-fledged professional engineering workstation products. It's pretty powerful, but I found the learning curve to be pretty steep. There are a lot of very nice and convenient things you can do but they are not obvious at first glance.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby jimimash » 2013-Jul-Sun-23-Jul

For the guy who has never used CAD, you are talking a distant world. SolidWorks is not necessarily (or not) the absolute answer. I'm just saying that you made it sound an awful lot like that was what you were inferring.

The basics of CAD are found in WIREFRAME - NOT solid modelling. Learning how to throw down points, lines, planes, etc, are the basis, just as you don't jump into trigonometry without some geometry. From there, you learn to EXTRUDE, REVOLVE, etc.

These are the same principles you find in ANY CAD system, from the lowest to the highest order. And, logically, you always begin learning with the most basic concepts first. Couple that with the fact that AutoCAD is a staple in community colleges, and you have a natural choice.

I went from AutoCAD directly to Catia. There were new concepts introduced, to be sure - but like I keep saying, basics is basics - one thing at a time.

Rather Diesel - there is no reason in the world that you shouldn't start with AutoCAD. From what it sounds like, you have no guarantee of going on to use CAD full time, so any other software is a pretty substantial risk.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby Ridgeback » 2013-Jul-Sat-19-Jul

I've had great luck with ViaCad. I couldn't get Google SketchUp to work with my brain. ViaCad does some really nice things and will import/export pretty much any file format. I've been playing with STL's in ViaCad for all of my prints. It's $99, but it has been worth it. It is in the Apple App Store on iTunes or one can download it from punchcad. It can run on both Mac/Windows.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby esn » 2013-Jul-Wed-07-Jul

I have done some models in solidworks 2000 that i got from a "friend" it is far moore powerfull than i ever will be able to use but im qite stuck to the UI i feel when i try out other programs.. Now my version is not suported in my W7 Os so i search for a free cad with similar UI.. any sugestions?

I have tried autodesk123D beta. it´s free but i cannot find out how to export .stl so it is not that interesting ..
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby esn » 2013-Aug-Thu-15-Aug

Ok now i have done some keycaintags in 3dtin at the web and like it but i think i will still use sw alot.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby REPRAP SQUAD » 2013-Sep-Mon-10-Sep

Really my personal fav that I've recently started using is sketchup 8. I will definitely be getting the pro version. It works great and is easy to pick-up. I like the fact that there is a limitless amount of tutorial videos that you can watch and they are very usefull.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby plexus » 2013-Oct-Thu-11-Oct

Just an update: I bought ViaCAD Pro 8 for my mac and its been working great! it has some little quirks but I am able to work through and learn the details. I haven't launched my go-to Alibre/Cubify so ViaCAD must be working out. :) I've used it to design a few things so far and so far so good. I like the STL export control - you can control the nature and number of polygons in the resulting STL. this gives me better control of the slicing and print quality.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby 2Gringos » 2013-Oct-Sun-08-Oct

I'm reading this with quite a bit of interest, as I too am searching for the right CAD program to design and 3D print. I had been using Sketchup for about six years, and it's been a frustrating six years. I agree that there is just something in Sketchup that doesn't work in my brain. there are always a zillion mis aligned or hidden lines or points or something. Someone pointed out to me that Sketchup is basically an architectural tool, and as such was never intended to work with anything that had curves in it, or any measurements smaller than 1/8th inch. They continue to put band-aids on it to try to keep it competitive, but it's just not right for me. Oh, I still use it, as I have some familiarity with it, but I don't much like it.

In the past six months or so since I got my Printrbot Plus going, I've been trying various programs. Tried the newest Sketchup first. Blah. Loaded up Blender and saw within about an hour that it's like using Photoshop to crop a picture. Or an RPG to kill a mosquito. Way, way too complicated. I don't need to have to mentally subtract animation software from my 3D cad activities. I tried looking at Tinkercad and a few others, but anything that runs on a browser and requires a good internet connection to work is totally out of the running for me. We can go days with no internet. And I want to put a printer on our sailboat and take it with us. I need a standalone ability to design up a boat part and print it, out in the ocean. No interrnet.

I just spent about a month with 123D Design. It's moderately easy, and does a decent job, but was designed to be hooked up to the internet and you lose a lot if you don't want to be 'in the cloud'. And I don't. I don't want to store my projects on someone elses system. I don't do cloud. Period. I just stopped using 123Design after several frustrating hours trying to put text on a knob I made for the marina's BBQ grill. Frustrating.

Still looking.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby 2Gringos » 2013-Oct-Sun-09-Oct

just spent three hours looking around FreeCad. Nope. I don't want a program that requires me to type in line after line of instructions. Going to uninstall that one, too.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Oct-Sun-10-Oct

Look at Design Spark Mechanical, www.designspark.com , maybe do some Google research and see if it's close to what you want first. Try skimming over the tutorials, too.

It's a big download. I've installed it, but can't use that computer ATM so no user report.

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby 2Gringos » 2013-Oct-Mon-11-Oct

Well, I just wasted over an hour downloading and unzipping DesignSpark. When I went to, finally, open the program the first thing I got was a box telling me I had to first establish a new account with them.

I don't want to get involved with a program that requires me to be connected to the internet in order to use it. I spend my time between living on a small island, on a sailboat,o in a travel trailer. Not uncommon for me to go days at a time without internet.
I have no interest in storing my projects on some company's computer. Call it "cloud" or whatever, bottom line is someone else has control of your work, your processes, and your output. Gosh, how dumb is THAT?

Remember, if you're not paying for the product, you ARE the product.

So, while I appreciate the help,DesignSpark is a double fail for my particular use.



I just tried out the latest Sketchup, the 2013 "Make" version. Again, it's crummy. It won't accept any distance finer than a tenth of a mm. So when you input, for example 9.35 mm as measured on a project, it will just change that and tell you it's aprox. 9.3 mm. If you are trying to match that point up with another item that was a distance of, for example, 9.25 mm, it will tell you that it's been changed to aprox. 9.2mm. Well, aprox. 9.3 and aprox 9.2 do not equal the 18.6 that would be the correct distance when adding 9.35 and 8.25. It comes out to be 18.5 instead of 18.6 and a tenth of a mm IS something that sketchup recognizes, and you now have a gap in your model where two lines don't intersect. Do that a few hundred times and try to print it.

While rounding up numbers is probably okay if you're just printing keychains, it's really a bad practice to get into when you're actually designing something that has to fit something else in the real world.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby Lemm » 2013-Oct-Mon-11-Oct

Have you tried if designspark requires a connection everytime you use it? My tougth was that it is only on the first start
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Oct-Mon-13-Oct

My understanding is it only needs a connection for that first session, although it will use an available connection to check for updates. It's been discussed in their forum if you want to check.

If you're concerned about registering then use a dummy name, and a mail drop account if they send a click here to activate request (sorry, I don't remember if they did). Like 1usemail or guerillamail. A good name, from back before the Internet existed, is:

Marvin Mailfree
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Their intent is that you'll find it easy to buy parts from them (RS Components/Newark Electronics iirc), because it's closely tied into their part number/ordering system. They don't demand it, just make it easier than buying from the other guys. IMHO, a fair trade off for providing a full CAD package free. Otherwise go buy Aspire, Solid works, AutoCAD, etc. for big bucks.

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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby opiesche » 2013-Oct-Mon-15-Oct

I like FreeCAD, although the learning curve is definitely there - it took me a few days to get used to its 'way' of doing things, but once you get the hang of it though, making even complex shapes is pretty quick. (Disclaimer: I've been using 3D software for decades (software engineer by trade)).
I like its feature of building a shape from a parametric sketch, and then being able to 'stick' other sketches on the faces of that shape to subtract or add to it without needing to worry about the angles the faces have relative to the world space axes. There's some UI wonkiness that should be fixed just to make often performed tasks like moving a sketch easier, but in general it's a pretty powerful piece of software. It's fully parametric, i.e. allows for changing dimensions or positions of individual features after the fact, and is really quick to rebuild the final object even with very complex stacks of operations when changing, for example, the shape of the initial basic shape.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby opiesche » 2013-Oct-Mon-15-Oct

Oh, and I almost forgot: the constraint model they have for sketching is awesome. You set up your sketch from basic elements (lines, circes, arcs), and then add constraints where you need them to fix individual elements in specific ways, for example the length of a line or the radius of a circle. Essentially, you're creating a technical sketch that defines a cross section of the object or hole you're trying to create by extrusion, subtraction, lofting or sweeping.

freecad1.jpg

If you leave out specific constraints, you can then change the shape of the object in very specific ways by dragging unconstrained or partially constrained points or lines around, while the constrained pieces stay in place/shape based on the constraints you defined. This is very powerful because it gives you the option to put very specific dimensions in place while still being able to visually edit the parts whose dimensions you're not sure about yet.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby Russianwolf » 2014-Feb-Tue-21-Feb

I am completely new to this world. I have a printrbot simple arriving tomorrow and will be learning as I go. I have ideas that I need to get out of my head, some simple, some not so much.

I have a part in mind that I can use as a test bed for any software that you would like to recommend.

I'll be uploading sketchup tonight (worked with it a bit in the past) and maybe a few of the other free/open programs to try out. Pay to Play programs may be down the road.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby evanalmighty » 2014-Feb-Tue-21-Feb

To get around the dimensioning issue with Sketchup, just use larger units and scale it down when you go to print. I use solidworks and Catia so I really can't comment on the other free programs.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby reepete1 » 2014-Feb-Sat-05-Feb

After checking on alot of CAD programs, i still need to find something that is child friendly. I like the way they have set up the easy crafting of nametags, rings etc. on Cubify homepage, but they are to restricting and to little diffrent things to craft.
Is there any other site or program that works in a similar way?
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby Guyverblue » 2014-Feb-Sat-07-Feb

Have you tried Tnkercad.com? Mostly drag and drop for kids but can be quite powerful for other users. You can also upload .stl files and edit them.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby reepete1 » 2014-Feb-Sat-08-Feb

Yes. The older (11 year) have tryed it abit, but the younger(9 year) cant get the hang of it. What i like about the Cubify site is that you can simply chose a design of a ring, then add some decoration(and placement) then save and print. Fast and easy to get something done. 3DTin is nice aswell, but you still have to make the ring(or what you are making) from scratch, and that takes most of the time to much time and effort to be fun for them(they still learing the art of patience though ;) ).

So what i'm looking for is a program/site with some more or less pre-made things that they can add something to.
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Re: CAD Software for Beginners

Postby wd5gnr » 2014-Feb-Sat-12-Feb

This is a good thread, but there is also a Wiki-entry on this topic at http://www.printrbottalk.com/wiki/index ... e=Software

I just updated it to point to my Wiki page about Cloud based http://www.printrbottalk.com/wiki/index ... _Modelling

If you look on that page, the "publish your design" tool has a sister tool for building with legos. You might try getting the kids to "play with legos" on the computer and then switch them to the 3D tool. Haven't tried that so your mileage may vary.
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