Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Talk about materials used in 3D printing

Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Mar-Fri-15-Mar

If you are not terribly fussy about the surface finish on the bottom of your print, then there is a really easy, low-maintenance way to make prints with ABS, PLA, or nylon. You can use canvas, glued to a flat surface like glass or metal. It works at room temperature. (Need I mention the problems people have been having with their heaters?)

I have been printing on the same piece of canvas now for two months (dozens and dozens of objects) and I have not had to use any solvents, or any consumable supplies at all. I did this because I wanted to use nylon, and nylon doesn't like most of the standard solutions people use for ABS and PLA.

When it comes time to replace it, canvas for a Plus bed costs about USD 0.40; the glass and epoxy cement cost a little more, but the total cost is still very small compared to Kapton.

So yesterday I decided to answer the question of whether canvas would work at room temperature for PLA and ABS. Here is the answer:

smNylon_PLA_ABS.jpg


You will notice that these pieces are all printed on a "raft." That's where KISSlicer comes in; the current version Slic3r doesn't do "rafts."

Now, are there tricks? Yes.
1) You need to adjust the Z-zero so that the first layer of your raft gets mushed down (scientific term ;) ) into the canvas - looking rather flat like a ribbon. The second layer of the raft, however, should look like threads. It's not easy to get this setting exactly right. But when you get it right, it works wonderfully. The rafts on all three of these test pieces were easy to remove. (The test pieces are open both top and bottom).

2) The adhesion is pretty good - and you can't make the rafts "pop off" with a temperature change. So how to remove them? I use a 1/2" wide chisel - but it's not as bad as that sounds. A chisel has a blade that's set at the correct angle, and a handle that makes it easy to control. You ease your way under a corner of the raft (perhaps using a side-to-side slicing motion), and then carefully peel up the object in little increments. Again, the shape of the chisel blade is perfect for this action. I do this with the object still on the raft, then remove the raft from the object later. If you just pull the object directly off the bed, you probably will leave the raft behind - and it is a little fragile without the object to reinforce it, so the raft might be harder to remove in preparation for the next print.

If others start following this method, there may be some more community wisdom to share about tricks to optimize the results.
  • 0

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Sponsor

Sponsor
 

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby artem » 2013-Mar-Fri-15-Mar

What kind of glue did you use to adhere the canvas to your bed (glass?)?
  • 0

User avatar
artem
Waiting for extruder temp...
 
Posts: 93
Joined: 2013-Jan-Fri-08-Jan
Location: Rochester NY
Reputation: 3

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Mar-Fri-16-Mar

I used Loctite "Heavy Duty High Strength Builders Formula" which comes in a red-and blue package with two 4-ounce bottles. I got it at a big-box hardware store.

I mixed a total volume of about two tablespoons (1 US fluid ounce, or 30 cc).

It has a consistency slightly thicker than honey. I spread it around as uniformly as I could on the glass with a scrap piece of corrugated cardboard for my "trowel." Then I laid down the canvas, and I used a rigid straight edge - anything the right size would do - to squeegee the canvas down onto the glass. The idea was to have the epoxy well soaked into the bottom of the canvas, but leave the top surface completely dry.

This assembly is pretty much permanent. Maybe with the right amount of heat, you could soften the epoxy and remove the canvas, but then you still would not have a pristine glass surface. Both glass and canvas are pretty cheap. The epoxy comes out to about $2.00 per application, so it's actually the most expensive part.

You might try a water-soluble glue. I don't know if Elmer's glue would have the strength needed... More opportunities for discovery. :)
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby plexus » 2013-Mar-Fri-17-Mar

I use Household Goop. so far so good but let it cure for at least a full day at room temp. i tried resin epoxy but it would soften with heat. so far the Goop is holding the canvas down solid on an aluminum print pallet i made. the canvas i am using comes from an art store. i am using the thicker unprimed natural canvas. sometime Goop will seep through but it doesn't seem to affect the print.

here: viewtopic.php?f=74&t=2291#p18942
  • 0

User avatar
plexus
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2117
Joined: 2011-Dec-Mon-16-Dec
Location: Toronto, Canada
Reputation: 95

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Mar-Mon-19-Mar

Plexus,
You said in another thread that you had trouble with objects pulling away from the canvas unless you heated it.
Please point me to an economical STL file that will be a particular challenge to print on a room-temperature bed. ("Economical" meaning it won't take hours and hours to print).
I think my technique with the KISSlicer raft works, and I'd like to test it against your problem case.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby plexus » 2013-Mar-Mon-21-Mar

RJay do you have a 3D CAD app? i can make it for you but if you do just make a block X60mm Y40mm Z20mm print with a 0.5mm nozzle using 500 micron layers in ABS with 10% rectilinear in fill, 3 loop perimeters 1mm thick at about 50mm/s print speed no Z lift and whatever retraction say E1mm at a true 230C E temp. i use a 75C bed usually (true 75C). also fillet the bottom edges only with a 3mm radius. no fan. ;)
  • 0

User avatar
plexus
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2117
Joined: 2011-Dec-Mon-16-Dec
Location: Toronto, Canada
Reputation: 95

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby wd5gnr » 2013-Mar-Tue-13-Mar

I assume this leaves a "pattern" on the surface. Or does the raft peel off the bottom as well as the sides?
  • 0

Al Williams
Twitter: @awce_com
FB: http://www.facebook.com/Understanding3dPrinting
User avatar
wd5gnr
Support material...
 
Posts: 491
Joined: 2012-Nov-Thu-10-Nov
Reputation: 22

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Mar-Tue-14-Mar

Yes, as I said at the top of this thread,
RetireeJay wrote:If you are not terribly fussy about the surface finish on the bottom of your print
...
If you don't use a raft, you get the imprint of the canvas. If you do use a raft, and if you are successful pulling it off (not a sure thing) then you end up with about the same level of texture coming from the raft.

I've run Plexus' experiment with the block, but I'm still documenting and repairing the damage - so I'll post the results later.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Mar-Tue-17-Mar

Okay, the "damage" I referred to was delamination of the canvas from the glass underneath because the epoxy is not rated to handle that temperature. :( But the good news is that the epoxy is (apparently) a thermoplastic: When re-heated and pressed back into place, then allowed to cool, it seems to be well bonded again. :D :D

Now for the results of the experiment. (Yes, Plexus, I have CAD software: Alibre. It's pretty powerful, and I'm finally starting to see the slope of the learning curve tilt in my favor.) So I designed a brick 60 X 40 X 20 according to Plexus' specification. I printed it with a 0.5mm nozzle using 0.5mm layer height with 10% rectilinear fill, 3 loop perimeters 1mm thick at about 50mm/s print speed and no Z retraction. However, I used nylon not ABS. I printed at 235 (setpoint), no fan.

The first brick I did was with the bed at room temperature. I had the Z setting quite low, so both the first and second layers of the raft were pretty well flattened.
Brick_FirstLayerOfRaft.jpg

Brick_SecondLayerOfRaft.jpg

The 10% infill is pretty sparse...
Brick_UnderConstruction.jpg

When it finished, the brick and raft were still well attached to the bed at every point, but you can see a little curvature.
Brick_FinishedOnBed.jpg

Here is a picture showing the curvature on the top against a straightedge
Brick_SlightCurvature copy.jpg


Next, I ran the experiment with a heated bed. I rarely work with a heated bed, and I don't have an accurate way to measure the temperature. But I used a meat thermometer to give me something more than just the bed's thermistor. When this picture was shot, the bed thermistor was reading 85C. It could well be correct, because there will be a temperature gradient through the heater and through the glass. The meat thermometer is reading 165F, which is pretty close to 75C. The big roll of tape is ballast to hold the end of the meat thermometer down, and also a barrier against air circulation to try to get a reading that represents the bed temperature.
BedAt75C.jpg

What happened next was, I suppose, predictable: the epoxy can't maintain a grip at that temperature, so the part pulled up on the canvas and created a curvature.
BrickOnHotBedCurvedAnyway.jpg


But the worst part of the experience was trying to remove this brick. I waited until the bed was cool, and then tried to pry it off. It was really really stuck to the canvas! :evil: In fact, I could not get it off without breaking the part!
BrickFromHotBed copy.jpg


Now, I suppose that an intrepid investigator could carry this a few steps further:
- Use an adhesive for the canvas that can take the heat
- Use a Z-zero setting that doesn't mash so much plastic down into the nylon.

BUT - to me, one big advantage of the nylon is not having to use any heat. It's safer and easier to work that way. If you need geometrically perfect large parts, it won't be right for you... but it can be useful in many situations.
  • 0

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Mar-Fri-09-Mar

Well... I'm waiting.

Won't someone else please print the test brick in ABS on glass or aluminum, using your favorite potion for adhesion?

And Plexus, you have done some printing on canvas, including with nylon. Won't you print your brick on canvas using ABS and nylon, heated and unheated? What's the real story here? Are my results warped because nylon has a bigger coefficient of thermal expansion than ABS - and this brick is impossible to make truly rectangular in nylon no matter what? (When we get some better weather here, I'll open up the windows and run a window fan to vent the fumes so I can test the brick in ABS. But until I make up a bed with a better heat-resistant adhesive, I'm sticking to room temperature canvas.)
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby plexus » 2013-Mar-Fri-10-Mar

@RetireeJay sorry.... I actually missed this post! I didn't see it in the "view unread posts". let me review the post and i will reply here! looks really interesting!!
  • 0

User avatar
plexus
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2117
Joined: 2011-Dec-Mon-16-Dec
Location: Toronto, Canada
Reputation: 95

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby minwax » 2013-Apr-Sat-14-Apr

RetireeJay, I'm about to do some work with the Taulman nylon - maybe 645. I'm not sure yet. We're still working out the material characteristics that will be needed. Would you mind sharing your KS settings?

Also, can you explain the setup and compensation for the canvas layer?

Thanks!
Bill
  • 0

minwax
Loading filament...
 
Posts: 20
Joined: 2013-Apr-Wed-18-Apr
Reputation: 2

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby gyronictonic » 2013-Apr-Sat-15-Apr

RetireeJay wrote:Well... I'm waiting.

Won't someone else please print the test brick in ABS on glass or aluminum, using your favorite potion for adhesion?


I've been printing ABS straight on glass for the past 2 weeks and I'm on a winning streak for zero curling. Here's my method for zero curling:

Clean glass with Alcohol > then Windex > apply Hairspray > apply Elmers gluestick > print with brim

With this method, the ABS will definitely stay on the HBP and the part will pop off the HBP when the part cools down.
  • 0

Backer # 626
Printbot Plus

Upgrades
- GT2, 36 teeth timing pulley
- Acme rods
- .25mm nozzle
- Drawcut's Spur gears for the Wade Extruder
gyronictonic
Printing skirt...
 
Posts: 168
Joined: 2012-Apr-Sun-12-Apr
Reputation: 11

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Apr-Sun-21-Apr

minwax wrote:RetireeJay, I'm about to do some work with the Taulman nylon - maybe 645. I'm not sure yet. We're still working out the material characteristics that will be needed. Would you mind sharing your KS settings?

Also, can you explain the setup and compensation for the canvas layer?

Thanks!
Bill

I've printed with my nozzle temperature setpoint anywhere from 225 to 235. If you go too low, you can build the part but the layers don't adhere to each other (the part is fragile). With adequate temperature, the part is really very strong. You have to realize that your thermistor may not match mine exactly, so experiment a little. I printed a cylinder about 2cm in diameter and 20cm tall, just one layer thickness. This shows you really quickly whether or not your layers are adhering.

I don't understand your question about the "setup and compensation" for the canvas layer. I have permanently glued my canvas to the underlying glass bed, and then adjust the Z stop setting relative to the surface of the canvas.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby minwax » 2013-Apr-Tue-16-Apr

Thank you. I was asking more about Kisslicer settings for print speeds etc.
I found your previous posts about mashing the raft layer and what to do about it. Regarding the warping, did you stretch the canvas or just squeegee it down? I'm going to try stretching it over a larger platform and then gluing the platen on with JB weld.
  • 0

minwax
Loading filament...
 
Posts: 20
Joined: 2013-Apr-Wed-18-Apr
Reputation: 2

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby minwax » 2013-Apr-Tue-16-Apr

Thank you. I was asking more about Kisslicer settings for print speeds etc.
I found your previous posts about mashing the raft layer and what to do about it. Regarding the warping, did you stretch the canvas or just squeegee it down? I'm going to try stretching it over a larger platform and then gluing the platen on with JB weld.
  • 0

minwax
Loading filament...
 
Posts: 20
Joined: 2013-Apr-Wed-18-Apr
Reputation: 2

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Apr-Tue-19-Apr

For speeds, it really depends on the part you are making (size, complexity, infill...) and your preference for precision versus print time and machine vibration. This link has excellent information: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1124&p=9463&hilit=speed+limit#p9463

By the way, if you use Repetier Host for your interface to the machine, you can crank the speed up or down on the fly as your print progresses.

I didn't stretch the canvas, I just squeegeed it down. You want it smooth and level, that's all.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby minwax » 2013-Apr-Wed-08-Apr

I'm going to print the test brick with the canvas stretched and glued down with JB weld. The curling looks to me like the canvas pulled... but who knows? Also, The are many examples online of nylon prints that don't seem to suffer from the strings due to oozing etc. Is it due to the design of the PB extruder that retraction is not possible?
  • 0

minwax
Loading filament...
 
Posts: 20
Joined: 2013-Apr-Wed-18-Apr
Reputation: 2

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Apr-Wed-18-Apr

Oh, the extruder mechanism definitely can retract the incoming filament. I'm not sure exactly why nylon oozing seems to be an issue with the Ubis extruder that PB uses. I don't know the details of the hot end designs to be able to compare.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby drawcut » 2013-Apr-Sat-09-Apr

RetireeJay wrote:....
1) You need to adjust the Z-zero so that the first layer of your raft gets mushed down (scientific term ;) ) into the canvas - looking rather flat like a ribbon. The second layer of the raft, however, should look like threads. It's not easy to get this setting exactly right. But when you get it right, it works wonderfully. The rafts on all three of these test pieces were easy to remove. (The test pieces are open both top and bottom)....


How do you adjust the raft layers, especially the second layer? I can set Z very tight to try and get that first layer squished down but what can be done to affect the second layer? Are there settings in KS for this?

There was some talk in the KS threads on this but I never saw any ideas on what to change for this. I'm using Win7 and the latest Beta of KS.

Thanks.
  • 0

Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
User avatar
drawcut
ACME leadscrew
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 2012-Mar-Mon-19-Mar
Location: USA - Wisconsin
Reputation: 16

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Apr-Sat-09-Apr

KISSlicer doesn't have separate settings for the first and subsequent layer thicknesses (although Slic3r does).

So the idea is simply that the z-altitude of the printhead increases by a fixed amount for every layer (in KISSlicer). If KISSlicer expects every layer to be 0.4mm thick but in fact the clearance when it's at that the first layer setting is only 0.2mm, then the first layer gets mashed down pretty good. However, when it prints the second layer, it moves the printhead up 0.4mm (to an actual 0.6mm) and the second layer is printed with "normal" thickness. The only way to mess up the second layer is to have the first layer so deeply embedded that the second layer is also squished to less than the "normal" thickness.

I'm using numbers above just for example; I don't have accurate measurements. In fact, since canvas is not glassy smooth, there is some ambiguity in the definition of the first layer height. I just use the paper test - aiming for a significant drag. I start with the printhead elevated, and put a piece of paper in place under it, then command the printhead to zero height. If the clearance is correct, I can just barely push paper toward and under the printhead without the paper buckling.

(Of course, you have to be sure your printhead is not holding a thread of plastic coming out of the nozzle. And it helps if the printhead is up to temperature, to account for thermal expansion.)
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby drawcut » 2013-Apr-Sat-16-Apr

That's pretty much what I have been doing, but I still get a very dense second raft layer that is very hard to remove from the part. If I use Cura with the same initial Z height I get a raft much more like what you describe. Are you using a Mac by chance? I ask because Plexus uses a Mac and gets KS rafts like you but others on PCs have had issues like me.

On the bed material: Have you tried Garolite LE? The Nylon 618 supplier recommends this and I see a lot of people on other forums reporting good results with Nylon on this. Not sure if ABS and PLA would possible work as well on Garolite LE.
  • 0

Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
User avatar
drawcut
ACME leadscrew
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 2012-Mar-Mon-19-Mar
Location: USA - Wisconsin
Reputation: 16

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Apr-Sat-17-Apr

Fwiw, McMaster's a good garolite le source in the US, but not for Canada. It's called Tufnol in the UK. What's a good thickness?

Has anybody tried Taulman's new Nylon 645 yet?

Kirk
  • 0

Modified KickStarter Classic Plus 7/2012
KS Thingybot Delta Pro 10/31/16
User avatar
Mooselake
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 3614
Joined: 2011-Dec-Tue-23-Dec
Location: Moose Swamp, Upper Michigan, USA
Reputation: 177

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby drawcut » 2013-Apr-Sun-08-Apr

Taulman's site recommends 1/8 or 1/4 thick. I have some 1/8 on the way from McMaster as well as nylon 618 from Lulzbot.

Since I had to replace my extruder motor anyway I decided to do some upgrades on the extruder at the same time. Now it looks like I may be waiting on a new hobbed bolt before I can start testing.
  • 0

Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
User avatar
drawcut
ACME leadscrew
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 2012-Mar-Mon-19-Mar
Location: USA - Wisconsin
Reputation: 16

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Apr-Sun-12-Apr

drawcut wrote:Now it looks like I may be waiting on a new hobbed bolt before I can start testing.


Make your own, lots of directions online. It only takes a tap and electric drill. Maybe not as nice as the ready-made ones, but a bolt in the hand...

What did you order, and what kind of extruder mods? New gears - you might be the only professional gear designer in rep-rap land? Inquiring minds want to know.

Kirk
  • 0

Modified KickStarter Classic Plus 7/2012
KS Thingybot Delta Pro 10/31/16
User avatar
Mooselake
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 3614
Joined: 2011-Dec-Tue-23-Dec
Location: Moose Swamp, Upper Michigan, USA
Reputation: 177

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby drawcut » 2013-Apr-Sun-13-Apr

I'm getting a higher quality bolt (Arcol's Hyena bolt) so i'm willing to wait. New gears yes, but I found some manufactured gears that I think will be better than anything I could print. I will post on it when I get things together and tested.

To avoid a thread hijack: On the canvas, I looked at a looked at a craft / hobby shop and all they had was canvas pre-stretched on frames for painting. I would guess a fabric store would be a better place? Looking online I see different canvas weights 10 oz vs 7 oz, etc. Would heavier be better - more texture maybe? How about a canvas painter tarp? Those seemed cheap.
  • 0

Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
User avatar
drawcut
ACME leadscrew
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 2012-Mar-Mon-19-Mar
Location: USA - Wisconsin
Reputation: 16

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby minwax » 2013-Apr-Sun-20-Apr

I stretched and attached some cotton duck that I got at a local fabric store to an Al plate using JB Weld which has an upper temp limit of 315C. It is the 9.65 oz / sq yd weight.

Then I found mention of the Tufnol (Whale brand) ... Wasn't that the guy's name in SpinalTap??... on the RichRap site. I couldn't find that but did read that McMaster Carr sells Garolite so I bought a piece of that. The FE version seems to match the description. I'll try both and report the results.
  • 0

minwax
Loading filament...
 
Posts: 20
Joined: 2013-Apr-Wed-18-Apr
Reputation: 2

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Apr-Tue-07-Apr

drawcut wrote:That's pretty much what I have been doing, but I still get a very dense second raft layer that is very hard to remove from the part. If I use Cura with the same initial Z height I get a raft much more like what you describe. Are you using a Mac by chance? I ask because Plexus uses a Mac and gets KS rafts like you but others on PCs have had issues like me.

On the bed material: Have you tried Garolite LE? The Nylon 618 supplier recommends this and I see a lot of people on other forums reporting good results with Nylon on this. Not sure if ABS and PLA would possible work as well on Garolite LE.


No, my computer is a Windows 7 machine. I don't think the computer matters. It's just a question of setting the z zero very precisely. And even then, I don't have rafts that are easy to remove. It depends on the shape of the part. Large flat surfaces on the bottom are not likely to separate from the raft easily.

Yes, I have tried Garolite. I documented my results somewhere in these forums. I think that Garolite is manufactured with a plastic binder that melts at or below the temperature of molten nylon - so the part ends up being welded to the Garolite. Maybe you could be successful with Garolite if you have the bed at room temperature and you adjust the first layer so that it just barely touches the Garolite surface. When I tried it, I was mashing the nylon down and then I could not remove the part from the Garolite without breaking the part. I had to use hammer and chisel to clean the rest of the part off the Garolite.

But if you figure out how to use it, please post your technique!
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-May-Thu-15-May

I'm getting great results now printing parts using a room-temperature canvas bed that is glued down to glass with Loctite Stick-N-Seal Extreme (which can be used with heat if I ever need it).
By the way, this is canvas from a fabric store. It' very cheap, and it's not coated. I think that canvas from an art store would be an entirely different beast.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby rsilvers » 2013-May-Fri-16-May

gyronictonic wrote:
RetireeJay wrote:Well... I'm waiting.

Won't someone else please print the test brick in ABS on glass or aluminum, using your favorite potion for adhesion?


I've been printing ABS straight on glass for the past 2 weeks and I'm on a winning streak for zero curling. Here's my method for zero curling:

Clean glass with Alcohol > then Windex > apply Hairspray > apply Elmers gluestick > print with brim

With this method, the ABS will definitely stay on the HBP and the part will pop off the HBP when the part cools down.


At room temp?
  • 0

User avatar
rsilvers
First blob a success!
 
Posts: 526
Joined: 2013-Apr-Sun-23-Apr
Reputation: 56

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-May-Fri-17-May

rsilvers wrote:At room temp?

If you can print with ABS at room temp, do it. If not, use your favorite temperature. But I'd like to see if others can print that test brick that Plexus defined and not have any lift-off or curling -- whatever their technique.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby rsilvers » 2013-May-Fri-21-May

I don't have a heated bed. I am looking for ways to print ABS.

I used a 250 watt IR lamp ($6 or so) and with it about 8 inches away from my thick aluminum plate it heated it to 90-100C.

My first print at 230C extrusion and using the lamp had minimal warp.

Image

I got a filament jam though, and not sure why. Don't think that should happen at 230C at the 10-15mm/sec I was printing at, so maybe it was unrelated.

I tried again at 240C, just in case I had cold extrusion, and that didn't jam. I am getting a messed-up top layer though. I believe the heat from the lamp, combined with the hotter extrusion temp, is making it too stringy.

Image

In conclusion - I think you can make this work in a pinch to print ABS, but it seems better to have the part stuck to a hot plate without the filament being heated to much as it is being deposited - which the lamp seems to do.

But if you wanted to try this, I would suggest using it to pre-heat the plate to 105C (checked by IR thermometer), then start printing, and remove the heat before you do the top layer.

Oh yeah, it is not really good to heat wood over 100C, so have a fire extinguisher nearby, and don't leave it unattended.
  • 0

User avatar
rsilvers
First blob a success!
 
Posts: 526
Joined: 2013-Apr-Sun-23-Apr
Reputation: 56

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby rsilvers » 2013-May-Sun-00-May

I am going to give this a try.

I bought a $4 glass cutter at Lowes, and was able to recycle the 1980s lamp over our kitchen table - which had lots of crystal plates on it. I cut them to about 4x6 inches. It is very thick and flat-looking glass.

I then looked in the pile of clothes I was going to donate, and found some BDU-style pants made of rip-stop fabric. I used 3M spray-adhesive, applied it to both materials, and then put another piece of glass on top, and then put a 20 Kg scale-calibration weight on it.

I got the cheapest stuff: http://www.lowes.com/pd_7159-98-57-2P_4 ... s_dollar|1
and that may have been a mistake. I can pull it off if I try. How hard should it be to pull the fabric off the glass?

Image
  • 0

User avatar
rsilvers
First blob a success!
 
Posts: 526
Joined: 2013-Apr-Sun-23-Apr
Reputation: 56

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby rsilvers » 2013-May-Sun-01-May

  • 0

User avatar
rsilvers
First blob a success!
 
Posts: 526
Joined: 2013-Apr-Sun-23-Apr
Reputation: 56

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Sun-07-May

I have had good luck using 1/4" 'hardboard' as a base and wood glue on the canvas. Hardboard is a pressboard type of product made up of very small chips. It's flat and smooth. I found it at a local home improvement store, $7.00 for a 1/4" x 12" x 24" sheet. Easy to cut with any wood saw.
  • 0

Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
User avatar
drawcut
ACME leadscrew
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 2012-Mar-Mon-19-Mar
Location: USA - Wisconsin
Reputation: 16

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby rsilvers » 2013-May-Sun-20-May

This is the same blend as what I used, though the texture or thickness may differ:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Creative-Cuts ... ?tv2=true&
  • 0

User avatar
rsilvers
First blob a success!
 
Posts: 526
Joined: 2013-Apr-Sun-23-Apr
Reputation: 56

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-May-Sun-21-May

rsilvers wrote:7 times the price of this:

http://www.amazon.com/Weldbond-8-545-Ad ... m_sbs_hi_1


Nice find. Its temperature rating is 92C, which should be sufficient for most heated bed use (and of course I recommend no heat at all).

rsilvers wrote:I got the cheapest stuff: http://www.lowes.com/pd_7159-98-57-2P_4 ... s_dollar|1
and that may have been a mistake. I can pull it off if I try. How hard should it be to pull the fabric off the glass?


It needs to be very hard to pull off the glass. Your parts need to stick quite strongly to the fabric so they won't peel or curl. And unlike with printing on glass, there is no chance to take advantage of differential temperature coefficient of expansion to make your parts "pop off" by cooling the plate. You have to peel them off the fabric with force.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby rsilvers » 2013-May-Mon-19-May

You can see how it peels off in my video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7rqlNrCuq0
  • 0

User avatar
rsilvers
First blob a success!
 
Posts: 526
Joined: 2013-Apr-Sun-23-Apr
Reputation: 56

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-May-Tue-10-May

I just broke the glass under my canvas trying to remove a part!

Apparently I had the first layer mashed down into the canvas so deeply that it just didn't want to give up. I printed an object with a flat footprint on the bed of about 2" X 3", using raft. To peel it up, I was using a 1/2" wide chisel... but the force required was too much for the glass (mirror tile).

This proves that the Loctite Extreme has a really good grip holding the canvas to the glass!

But I really need to find a sweet spot for Z zero where the corners of my objects don't curl up yet I can remove them from the bed. I guess I'll have to do the micrometer trick like Plexus. The stock screw adjustment with two jam nuts is simply awful for making fine adjustments.

Also, I have a dial indicator and I've been meaning to design and print a bracket to repeatably mount it on the extruder... not easy to do when you want your placement to be much more accurate than 0.1mm
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Tue-17-May

I have been thinking about adding a bit of concavity to prints with large flat surfaces to help removal. Unfortunately that's only going to help when not using raft. Maybe.
  • 0

Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
User avatar
drawcut
ACME leadscrew
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 2012-Mar-Mon-19-Mar
Location: USA - Wisconsin
Reputation: 16

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby rsilvers » 2013-May-Fri-10-May

The Weldbond glue was a failure. The fabric pulled off the glass very easily.

So far the spray mount is maintaining a perfect surface with three prints, even though the parts were very solidly stuck on. Still, next time I will buy the Hi-Strength-90 3M spray mount.
  • 0

User avatar
rsilvers
First blob a success!
 
Posts: 526
Joined: 2013-Apr-Sun-23-Apr
Reputation: 56

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby ryankelly273 » 2013-Jul-Thu-01-Jul

If you don't use a raft, you get the imprint of the canvas. If you do use a raft and if you are successful pulling it off then you ends up with about the same level of texture coming from the raft.


local school
  • 0

ryankelly273
Waiting to connect to printer...
 
Posts: 1
Joined: 2013-Jul-Thu-01-Jul
Reputation: 0

Re: Print with no heat, using KISSlicer and canvas

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Nov-Tue-14-Nov

UPDATE: I now suggest a finer fabric than canvas, along with several other hints; see viewtopic.php?f=74&t=5598
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 5003
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 498


Return to Material talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest