Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Sun-19-Apr

Hello!

Well I have decided to reboot a design modification that I was working on a few months back. This is the Jonbot Plus!

As many of you should know, the Jonbot is the fully printable 1405. I remember reading quite a bit about people's interest in a Jonbot Plus that behaves more like the Printrbot Plus rather than the Simple.

So here is where I am so far. I basically discarded all of my old files.

The idea is that the YZ plate and the Z box can be mirrored and the YZ plate will only have to have minimal modification (which is already done!) while the X axis and hot end mount can be slightly modified to fit the new frame. The whole design will be done relatively soon and ready for printing by whoever wants to make one!

Here is a picture of the design so far. I think it's pretty clear that not much work has been done, but it is actually almost finished!
JBPlus.png


The added benefits should be no sag in the Y axis (which is now technically the X in the Plus design), and more stable movement in the X and Y directions.

The only drawback is that there will be no double precision in this design, sorry! Maybe someone can add that in the future? ANyway, this is where it is so far.

What do you guys think? Seems like it will be a good upgrade from the 1405!

EDIT: Got the Y axis done (except for the bed ends) which was going to be the hardest part of the mod. I ended up splitting the Y axis (note - the Y axis on this model is what the X was on the 1405) into two pieces so they can be printable on my 8x8 bed. The only thing to do now is mod the hot end mount and the bed ends, shouldn't be too hard. Just have to mash some LM8UU clamps and a GT2 clamp onto the hot end mount and modify the bed ends that Dan and I worked on.

JBPlus2.png
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Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Corey Warren » 2015-Apr-Sun-22-Apr

Orangefurball,

You read my mind. I was thinking of exactly this type of design. I'm not good enough yet at designing 3d models to venture into it alone. I was actually thinking of leaving Jon a little note in the hopes of planting the seed of this idea into his head.
I love what you've done here and the direction you're taking. Double precision would be nice, but, honestly it isn't necessary for what we are doing. I'll be following any future progress here and I'm willing to help print out parts, build and test. I'm into it!

Are you planning on doing as few modifications to Jon's parts as possible?
Are you planning on using 2 motors for the X axis?

Switching the Z Axis rods to they are perpendicular to the Y axis instead of in-line would greatly help with wobble, IMO. But, would require a heavy rework of the Y/Z Axis Plates.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Sun-22-Apr

Corey Warren wrote:Orangefurball,

You read my mind. I was thinking of exactly this type of design. I'm not good enough yet at designing 3d models to venture into it alone. I was actually thinking of leaving Jon a little note in the hopes of planting the seed of this idea into his head.
I love what you've done here and the direction you're taking. Double precision would be nice, but, honestly it isn't necessary for what we are doing. I'll be following any future progress here and I'm willing to help print out parts, build and test. I'm into it!

Are you planning on doing as few modifications to Jon's parts as possible?
Are you planning on using 2 motors for the X axis?

Switching the Z Axis rods to they are perpendicular to the Y axis instead of in-line would greatly help with wobble, IMO. But, would require a heavy rework of the Y/Z Axis Plates.


I'm glad I'm not the only one with this idea :D

I was trying to do as little modification as possible, but so far the only piece that is completely stock is one of the two Z boxes. Unfortunately the rest of it had to be changed.

I wasn't planning on using two motors for the X or Y, but the spots are there so you can choose where to put the motor. For the Y axis (technically X, but it uses Jons Y/Z plate), there will be an idler bearing mount that mounts to the existing Y/Z motor mount. Not sure if that made any sense!

What do you mean using Z axis motors that are perpendicular? Anything is possible with a complete rework like this!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Apr-Mon-03-Apr

Orangefurball

Nice thinking.

How wide does that make the spacing of the Y rods?

If you cut the center section out, about 1" beyond the bearing mount.
Then a center Y bed motor mount could be designed in the gap area.

If someone really wanted double precision you could use a RAMPS 1.4 board
with the appropriate drivers and set it to 1/32 steps - just a thought.

Guess I need to expand my thinking.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Mooselake » 2015-Apr-Mon-08-Apr

Couldn't you just go to 400 steps/rev motors to get double precision? Probably just X and Y, as the Z is already overstepped.

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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Mon-08-Apr

Mooselake wrote:Couldn't you just go to 400 steps/rev motors to get double precision? Probably just X and Y, as the Z is already overstepped.

Kirk

The Y axis would maintain double precision actually, but yes you are right doing double steps/rev would work for the Y axis.
KD6HQ wrote:Orangefurball

Nice thinking.

How wide does that make the spacing of the Y rods?

If you cut the center section out, about 1" beyond the bearing mount.
Then a center Y bed motor mount could be designed in the gap area.

If someone really wanted double precision you could use a RAMPS 1.4 board
with the appropriate drivers and set it to 1/32 steps - just a thought.

Guess I need to expand my thinking.

Y rod spacing... Haven't actually measured it yet. It should be similar to the expanded X rod spacing mod.

As for moving the motor to the center, I was actually thinking the same thing. The whole printer is designed to be screwed into a piece of wood or plastic cut to size to give all or the pieces extra rigidity, so moving the motor to the center wouldn't effect the structural rigidity quite as much as I thought it would.

I'll work on the design more when I have a chance!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Corey Warren » 2015-Apr-Mon-10-Apr

orangefurball wrote:
Corey Warren wrote:Orangefurball,

You read my mind. I was thinking of exactly this type of design. I'm not good enough yet at designing 3d models to venture into it alone. I was actually thinking of leaving Jon a little note in the hopes of planting the seed of this idea into his head.
I love what you've done here and the direction you're taking. Double precision would be nice, but, honestly it isn't necessary for what we are doing. I'll be following any future progress here and I'm willing to help print out parts, build and test. I'm into it!

Are you planning on doing as few modifications to Jon's parts as possible?
Are you planning on using 2 motors for the X axis?

Switching the Z Axis rods to they are perpendicular to the Y axis instead of in-line would greatly help with wobble, IMO. But, would require a heavy rework of the Y/Z Axis Plates.


I'm glad I'm not the only one with this idea :D

I was trying to do as little modification as possible, but so far the only piece that is completely stock is one of the two Z boxes. Unfortunately the rest of it had to be changed.

I wasn't planning on using two motors for the X or Y, but the spots are there so you can choose where to put the motor. For the Y axis (technically X, but it uses Jons Y/Z plate), there will be an idler bearing mount that mounts to the existing Y/Z motor mount. Not sure if that made any sense!

What do you mean using Z axis motors that are perpendicular? Anything is possible with a complete rework like this!


Orangefurball,

What I mean by the Z-Axis rods turned perpendicular is in the very crude drawing I attached.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Mon-10-Apr

Corey Warren wrote:
orangefurball wrote:
Corey Warren wrote:Orangefurball,

You read my mind. I was thinking of exactly this type of design. I'm not good enough yet at designing 3d models to venture into it alone. I was actually thinking of leaving Jon a little note in the hopes of planting the seed of this idea into his head.
I love what you've done here and the direction you're taking. Double precision would be nice, but, honestly it isn't necessary for what we are doing. I'll be following any future progress here and I'm willing to help print out parts, build and test. I'm into it!

Are you planning on doing as few modifications to Jon's parts as possible?
Are you planning on using 2 motors for the X axis?

Switching the Z Axis rods to they are perpendicular to the Y axis instead of in-line would greatly help with wobble, IMO. But, would require a heavy rework of the Y/Z Axis Plates.


I'm glad I'm not the only one with this idea :D

I was trying to do as little modification as possible, but so far the only piece that is completely stock is one of the two Z boxes. Unfortunately the rest of it had to be changed.

I wasn't planning on using two motors for the X or Y, but the spots are there so you can choose where to put the motor. For the Y axis (technically X, but it uses Jons Y/Z plate), there will be an idler bearing mount that mounts to the existing Y/Z motor mount. Not sure if that made any sense!

What do you mean using Z axis motors that are perpendicular? Anything is possible with a complete rework like this!


Orangefurball,

What I mean by the Z-Axis rods turned perpendicular is in the very crude drawing I attached.


Ok, I think you may be reading my mind. This was actually on the list of planned modifications, I just wasn't sure what others would think of it. I was also thinking of inverting one side but leaving the other in the stock 1405 configuration, this would also let me cut off some of the plastic of the Z boxes to save filament and some of the length of the machine. It is pretty long looking!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Thu-18-Apr

JBPlus3.png


There is the third iteration. I just realized that Jon included belt tensioning spots on his bed ends, so there is no need for the feet tensioners. People probably won't like that, but it really isn't necessary to have once we adjust out motor steps to mimic double precision (don't forget, I'm a big fan of double precision)

The removal of the tensioning feed allow me to put a very secure connection between the two motor bearing plates. I think I am going to leave the motors where they are for version one. I'm doing that for two reasons; 1) it works fine for me even with the extended rod spacing and 2) the design is a pretty complicated overhaul mechanically, so I'm going to keep it simple and stick with what I know will work!

Going to start printing up the Z boxes once I fix my Y motor!

OH! Almost forgot another thing that is good. Some people have firmware issues where an axis will go in the wrong direction and just flipping the motor doesn't help (because it will end up printing mirrored parts) so having the ability to simply switch sides seems to be a good bonus add (I know Dan had this issue)
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Apr-Thu-20-Apr

Orange

Do you remember this part? It occurred to me it would be a natural for the rod on the bed. Alignment on the baseboard for mounting would be critical but should work. Should save a lot of plastic also.

Do you know how to cut an object in half in SketchUP? Not just slice but actually cut it in half and discard one of the haves.

If you like double precision then how about quad stepping. Use a RAMPS 1.4 board with DRV8825 stepper drivers; set the steps to 1/32 and then us Jons double precision on top of it. Should have effective 1/64 step. Just a thought!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Thu-22-Apr

KD6HQ wrote:Orange

Do you remember this part? It occurred to me it would be a natural for the rod on the bed. Alignment on the baseboard for mounting would be critical but should work. Should save a lot of plastic also.

Do you know how to cut an object in half in SketchUP? Not just slice but actually cut it in half and discard one of the haves.

If you like double precision then how about quad stepping. Use a RAMPS 1.4 board with DRV8825 stepper drivers; set the steps to 1/32 and then us Jons double precision on top of it. Should have effective 1/64 step. Just a thought!


Have a link to the .skp or .stl? That gave me some ideas!

As for cutting in half, I just use Netfabb Basic (free) to cut then discard the part I don't want, at which point I just import the good half into sketchup.

Quad stepping sounds interesting.. when I (or someone else) makes this double precision compatible that could be a really cool option!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Apr-Thu-23-Apr

Orange it's one of yours. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:535361

Netfabb - thanks
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Thu-23-Apr

KD6HQ wrote:Orange it's one of yours. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:535361

Netfabb - thanks

Thanks! I totally forgot I made that!

JBPlus4.png

Dual hotend mount done. Don't worry about adjusting the height of the hot ends, that will be done with a different portion. There will be a single hotend mount as well that can use the DD aluminum extruder.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Apr-Fri-00-Apr

What's the backside of the dual mount look like?
Is that a belt anchor on the back?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Fri-00-Apr

KD6HQ wrote:What's the backside of the dual mount look like?
Is that a belt anchor on the back?


JBPlus6.png


Yes, the belt anchor and LM8UU clamps are borrowed from my Thingystock V2 design.

Here is where I got with the bottom portion. This uses less plastic and also enables double precision again on the X axis because the leg can be attached again. I was also able to recycle the design of the 208 increased spacing bed ends from Dan and I.

JBPlus5.png
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Fri-16-Apr

JBPlus7.png


New hot end mounts

JBPlus8.png


Here is how the rods will be held in place

JBPlus9.png


the X axis idler bearing mount, rear shot

JBPlus10.png


The whole thing up to this point
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Sat-18-Apr

IMG_20150418_195622.jpg


Progress so far!

I somehow ran out of 16mm M3 screws. Those and some stepper drivers are all the parts I need. So far its coming together really well though.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Sun-04-Apr

Design is 99% done! I just have to figure out RAMPS mounting (those using Printrboards can just use Jon's board mount) which I will probably end up attaching to the baseboard.

Pictures;

JBPlus11.png

JBPlus12.png


I have added an X axis cable chain mount, Bowden X endstop attachment, and Z mechanical homing attachment. Also added my 1405 Z stabilizers.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-Apr-Sun-13-Apr

ooooohhhhh pretty. i'm guessing your not going to do a mount for the probe? and i'm guessing it will take a printrbot 200mm x 200mm bed?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Sun-13-Apr

killbox wrote:ooooohhhhh pretty. i'm guessing your not going to do a mount for the probe? and i'm guessing it will take a printrbot 200mm x 200mm bed?

There will be a probe mount that will use Jon's standard front end, just with the LM8UU bearings rather than the rod clamps.

As for the bed, it uses standard MK2 sized beds (200x200 is correct) it doesn't have to be Printrbot branded
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby 2Mylent » 2015-Apr-Sun-14-Apr

A great job! :ugeek:
Print time how much in total?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Sun-14-Apr

2Mylent wrote:A great job! :ugeek:
Print time how much in total?

It was about 50 hours to print everything
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Mon-03-Apr

Another picture! Ignore the random stuff on the table :p
image.jpg


I hate to keep posting here but the build is going really smooth. All the bearings are installed and the X axis is together. I found some more 16mm screws so I'm just going to assemble it all tomorrow after I get a piece of wood for the baseboard.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-Apr-Mon-09-Apr

Please keep posting. it looks like its a really good build. plus I think this will be my next upgrade.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Mon-10-Apr

image.jpg


Ended up skipping sleep and just working in it and its all built now, the wiring is a mess and its only single extruder for now, but its working. I have to order longer Z rods though.

First print is starting now!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-Apr-Mon-11-Apr

have you seen this? http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:666592 i've adapted it to the simple but i'm still working on a way to do a dd type feed but only using a single motor
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby etxbkst » 2015-Apr-Mon-11-Apr

This is glorious!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby RetireeJay » 2015-Apr-Mon-11-Apr

Fantastic job, Orange!

I just have one comment: stiffness is what gives you the ability to run at high speeds - or more precisely, stiffness is what give you the ability to change directions and accelerate quickly. I notice that your extruder mount projects out from the supporting X rods with apparently only one bearing per rod. That means the extruder mount will be subject to vibration and wobble when the bot is doing features that call for rapid, small movements in X. I'd suggest having at least one more bearing riding on one of the X rods to give you more stiffness. As you know, a triangular shape is very stiff. The downside of doing this is that you will lose some of your X-axis motion. :(

You have an advantage over the original Plus in that you apparently are using a Bowden feed to the extruder, so you've moved a lot of mass off the extruder mount. That's very helpful. The vibrational resonant frequency of a mechanical structure gets lower (bad) when stiffness goes down and when moving mass goes up. So in the end, maybe your tradeoff of lower mass will compensate for your lower stiffness.
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Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Mon-12-Apr

RetireeJay wrote:Fantastic job, Orange!

I just have one comment: stiffness is what gives you the ability to run at high speeds - or more precisely, stiffness is what give you the ability to change directions and accelerate quickly. I notice that your extruder mount projects out from the supporting X rods with apparently only one bearing per rod. That means the extruder mount will be subject to vibration and wobble when the bot is doing features that call for rapid, small movements in X. I'd suggest having at least one more bearing riding on one of the X rods to give you more stiffness. As you know, a triangular shape is very stiff. The downside of doing this is that you will lose some of your X-axis motion. :(

You have an advantage over the original Plus in that you apparently are using a Bowden feed to the extruder, so you've moved a lot of mass off the extruder mount. That's very helpful. The vibrational resonant frequency of a mechanical structure gets lower (bad) when stiffness goes down and when moving mass goes up. So in the end, maybe your tradeoff of lower mass will compensate for your lower stiffness.


Thanks! I actually left enough room I'm the X axis to accommodate two more bearings. I'm going to test just the two bearings for now, I'll see what happens. I'm printing a temporary part cooling fan mount then will really run it through it's paces.

Bowden really does help quite a bit though, once I finally made the switch on the 1405 I had much better print results. It also allows me to use the second hotend without loosing too much Y motion.
etxbkst wrote:This is glorious!

Thanks! Files will be up on Thingiverse soon if you are interested.
killbox wrote:have you seen this? http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:666592 i've adapted it to the simple but i'm still working on a way to do a dd type feed but only using a single motor

For some reason that link won't load on my phone, I'll have to try a PC later. What is it exactly?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby frankv » 2015-Apr-Mon-13-Apr

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:666592 is Rotating Nozzle Platform

Allows to have up to 4 hot-ends for multicolor print.

Demo video: http://youtu.be/NfR9ofFEKFw

The rotation axis is tilted 10° (and hotends -10°) so that only the hotend in use is vertical and touching the bed (all other hotends are then a bit above).
I use it with E3Dv6 hotends, but I think it should work with any J-head hotend as long as the cooling part is not too large.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Mon-13-Apr

frankv wrote:http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:666592 is Rotating Nozzle Platform

Allows to have up to 4 hot-ends for multicolor print.

Demo video: http://youtu.be/NfR9ofFEKFw

The rotation axis is tilted 10° (and hotends -10°) so that only the hotend in use is vertical and touching the bed (all other hotends are then a bit above).
I use it with E3Dv6 hotends, but I think it should work with any J-head hotend as long as the cooling part is not too large.

Very cool, seems like a lot more that can go wrong though, how hard is it to actually set that up?

1429555351985.jpg


I finally got my Cyclops in the mail a few minutes ago. If it turns out to be as awesome as I hope I may end up picking up two more to do 4 color printing with two nozzles, not sure yet though. That's way down the road ;)
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Wed-22-Apr

IMG_20150422_232544.jpg

IMG_20150422_232550.jpg

Machine is running! I make a mistake and bought the wrong size threaded rods so I can't move the full 12" in the Z, but it works and it firmly on its 2'x2' MDF home.

Dual extruders are hooked up but I didn't mess with it too much, I just got them both extruding. That's it.

Everything fits well though! I'm printing an 8 inch tall Aria The Dragon now. I'll post pictures of that when it's done!

Ignore the mess please!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby frankv » 2015-Apr-Wed-23-Apr

Interesting!

I've been working on my own version of the trirod bot, making it printable on my little 1405 Simple.

I too have decided that a piece of MDF would be just fine as a base board. Where my design differs quite a bit is in the X axis... Rather than mounting the rails on a box and sliding them to and fro, I've mounted the rails to the base, and a rigid 4mm aluminium platform slides on the rails. That (I think) makes the X axis a whole lot more stable because:
a) The rails can be any distance apart you like (mine are 150mm apart for a 300mm X build distance)
b) The bearings can be any distance apart you like (mine are 150mm apart for a 300mm Y build distance)
c) There's room between the rails for the GT2 belt, and pulleys for double-precision.
d) The GT2 belt pulleys attach to the centreline of the bed, so there's minimal force twisting the bed
e) There is less weight being moved, because the rails no longer move, so more acceleration for the same amount of power
f) Pulley axles are vertical, so pulleys can be larger (easier on the belt, I think) and the bed can be lower
g) The height of the bed is low(ish), so there's minimal flexing of the bed supports.

The downside of the widely-spaced bearings and rails is that the rails and belts need to be long (my rails are 500mm to allow a total motion of about 300mm)... I don't know how negative that will be, but I'm starting to think that I should have gone for 10mm rails instead of 8mm.

So far I have the bed mounted and sliding to and from freely, but I'm stuck because I still need to build a couple of pulleys and a motor mount, and I'm waiting for a new hotend for my 1405 Simple :(

20150412_112747[1].jpg
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Wed-23-Apr

frankv wrote:Interesting!

I've been working on my own version of the trirod bot, making it printable on my little 1405 Simple.

I too have decided that a piece of MDF would be just fine as a base board. Where my design differs quite a bit is in the X axis... Rather than mounting the rails on a box and sliding them to and fro, I've mounted the rails to the base, and a rigid 4mm aluminium platform slides on the rails. That (I think) makes the X axis a whole lot more stable because:
a) The rails can be any distance apart you like (mine are 150mm apart for a 300mm X build distance)
b) The bearings can be any distance apart you like (mine are 150mm apart for a 300mm Y build distance)
c) There's room between the rails for the GT2 belt, and pulleys for double-precision.
d) The GT2 belt pulleys attach to the centreline of the bed, so there's minimal force twisting the bed
e) There is less weight being moved, because the rails no longer move, so more acceleration for the same amount of power
f) Pulley axles are vertical, so pulleys can be larger (easier on the belt, I think) and the bed can be lower
g) The height of the bed is low(ish), so there's minimal flexing of the bed supports.

The downside of the widely-spaced bearings and rails is that the rails and belts need to be long (my rails are 500mm to allow a total motion of about 300mm)... I don't know how negative that will be, but I'm starting to think that I should have gone for 10mm rails instead of 8mm.

So far I have the bed mounted and sliding to and from freely, but I'm stuck because I still need to build a couple of pulleys and a motor mount, and I'm waiting for a new hotend for my 1405 Simple :(

20150412_112747[1].jpg

Interesting design! I'm curious on how exactly your motor mounts, is it attached to the X plate itself? That would probably add to more weight being moved.

As for your rod length, I'm using 6 500mm rods and 2 300mm rods to give me a build volume of 200x200x300mm, so I think they are a good length.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby frankv » 2015-Apr-Wed-23-Apr

My motor will mount on the baseboard, just past the RH-end position of the bed... the shaft will be vertical, *below* the motor, so that the drive gear aligns with the other pulleys. I'd originally planned to make the base 600x600mm (2'x2') for economy, exactly half a standard 600x1200 sheet of MDF. But because the motor plus shaft is taller than the bed height, it needs to be alongside the bed somewhere. I decided that putting it at the end of the X axis (consequently my base needs to be at least 650mm wide :( ) was the least of several evils.

With 180 degrees of bend in the belt around the drive gear, I'm hoping that I don't need to add any idlers there.

There will be another pulley at the far side of the base, and the ends belt will be secured at each end by tensioners attached into the base.

All of my screws are M4 BTW, just because they're a bit easier to get in a variety of lengths than M3.

Not very obvious in the photo is that the mounts attaching the bearings and pulleys to the bed are 'squishpads' so they compress, so that the bed can be leveled.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Corey Warren » 2015-Apr-Thu-21-Apr

orangefurball wrote:
IMG_20150422_232544.jpg

IMG_20150422_232550.jpg

Machine is running! I make a mistake and bought the wrong size threaded rods so I can't move the full 12" in the Z, but it works and it firmly on its 2'x2' MDF home.

Dual extruders are hooked up but I didn't mess with it too much, I just got them both extruding. That's it.

Everything fits well though! I'm printing an 8 inch tall Aria The Dragon now. I'll post pictures of that when it's done!

Ignore the mess please!


Orange, I'm curious about the corner you removed from the hot end cooling fan. Was it hitting that Y motor?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Thu-21-Apr

Corey Warren wrote:
orangefurball wrote:
IMG_20150422_232544.jpg

IMG_20150422_232550.jpg

Machine is running! I make a mistake and bought the wrong size threaded rods so I can't move the full 12" in the Z, but it works and it firmly on its 2'x2' MDF home.

Dual extruders are hooked up but I didn't mess with it too much, I just got them both extruding. That's it.

Everything fits well though! I'm printing an 8 inch tall Aria The Dragon now. I'll post pictures of that when it's done!

Ignore the mess please!


Orange, I'm curious about the corner you removed from the hot end cooling fan. Was it hitting that Y motor?

Actually it just came damaged in the mail, but it runs well enough. The clearance is fine for the fan!


Is anyone interested in the files? If they are then I'll throw them on Thingiverse tonight
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Gadget-Dad » 2015-Apr-Fri-17-Apr

I am interested in having it up there. I am trying to figure out my next project.....and this one is looking good.

Great work
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Fri-18-Apr

Gadget-Dad wrote:I am interested in having it up there. I am trying to figure out my next project.....and this one is looking good.

Great work

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:792115

Up on my Thingiverse now. Glad you like it!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Gadget-Dad » 2015-Apr-Fri-19-Apr

What setting did you use to print it?

Do you have a good source for rods, bearings, motors, etal?

Thanks again for posting.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Fri-19-Apr

Gadget-Dad wrote:What setting did you use to print it?

Do you have a good source for rods, bearings, motors, etal?

Thanks again for posting.

Bearings and rods are just from eBay or Aliexpress, the hot ends are from E3D, the RAMPS board is from Aliexpress, the motors are from automationtechnologiesinc.com, and I think that's pretty much it.

As for the settings, I did 3 or 4 perimeters and 20-30 percent infill. .3mm layer heights on everything as well. Do at least 70% infill on the parts that tough the hot end if they aren't actively cooled like the E3D or the AMUbis.

Any other questions just ask!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Gadget-Dad » 2015-Apr-Fri-19-Apr

Excellent! Thanks.

Now I just need to figure out how to convince the wife... :)
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Fri-20-Apr

Gadget-Dad wrote:Excellent! Thanks.

Now I just need to figure out how to convince the wife... :)

No problem and good luck!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Sun-03-Apr

IMG_20150426_043443.jpg


.1mm layer height print. I need to dial in the retraction but I'm really impressed. There is no more Z wobble!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby cacb » 2015-Apr-Sun-04-Apr

Wow. I am not into dragons, but to think you printed that with a 3d-printed printer is amazing! I am following your progress with interest. Great work!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby 2Mylent » 2015-Apr-Sun-05-Apr

I am impressed with all this good work :o

Questions:
- What a source for firmware?
- What version of RAMPS?
- What electronic diagram?

And Bravo ;)
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Sun-20-Apr

cacb wrote:Wow. I am not into dragons, but to think you printed that with a 3d-printed printer is amazing! I am following your progress with interest. Great work!

Its not my best printer, but the quality is quite good. I'm not a fan of dragons, but the Aria model is a really great quality test in my opinion. Thanks for the compliments!

2Mylent wrote:I am impressed with all this good work :o

Questions:
- What a source for firmware?
- What version of RAMPS?
- What electronic diagram?

And Bravo ;)


Thanks!/

For the firmware I ended up just using stock Marlin and made the appropriate changes to fit the printer. I used RAMPS 1.4 and I'm not sure what you mean by electronic diagram, if you can explain it differently it may translate better! Sorry!
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby 2Mylent » 2015-Apr-Sun-21-Apr

orangefurball wrote:
cacb wrote: I used RAMPS 1.4 and I'm not sure what you mean by electronic diagram, if you can explain it differently it may translate better! Sorry!

I meant diagram implantation / motor connections etc ...
This looks like this?
http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/6/6d/Rampswire14.svg
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Sun-22-Apr

2Mylent wrote:
orangefurball wrote:
cacb wrote: I used RAMPS 1.4 and I'm not sure what you mean by electronic diagram, if you can explain it differently it may translate better! Sorry!

I meant diagram implantation / motor connections etc ...
This looks like this?
http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/6/6d/Rampswire14.svg

My apologies, that is the exact setup though.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-Apr-Mon-20-Apr

printing now. how far away is that single extruder with bearings? or will i have to try and mock something up?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Mon-20-Apr

killbox wrote:printing now. how far away is that single extruder with bearings? or will i have to try and mock something up?

I can have it done for tomorrow, it will use 4 bearings instead of the two that I currently use so that it will be able to support the extra motor weight.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-Apr-Mon-21-Apr

if you could that would be great
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Apr-Tue-15-Apr

killbox wrote:if you could that would be great

Added to Thingiverse! http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:792115
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Sun-18-May

so I've printed it out and i can't seem to get my z axis to work. running a ramps broad and i plugged the z steppers into there two ports and all they do is buzz? not sure why? is there something in the firmware i have to change in order to use two steppers for the z?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-May-Sun-19-May

killbox wrote:so I've printed it out and i can't seem to get my z axis to work. running a ramps broad and i plugged the z steppers into there two ports and all they do is buzz? not sure why? is there something in the firmware i have to change in order to use two steppers for the z?




Did you adjust the potentiometer on the Z stepper driver? Just use a small screwdriver to do it
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Sun-20-May

even at full voltage it just buzzes
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-May-Sun-21-May

killbox wrote:even at full voltage it just buzzes

Might be a faulty driver. Take one from one of the axis that works and switch it out
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Sun-22-May

well it spins the motors when there is only one hooked up with no load, but if i hook up two it seems to spin them at half the speed and then they can't take the load
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby frankv » 2015-May-Sun-23-May

I suggest trying one Z-axis stepper at a time plugged into (e.g.) the known-good X-axis connectors. If both the steppers themselves are good, focus on the little Z-axis driver board. Swap that to the X axis and see if that kills the X-axis stepper. Put the X-axis driver into the Z-axis socket and see if that drives both the (now known-good) Z-axis steppers.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby RetireeJay » 2015-May-Mon-06-May

killbox wrote:well it spins the motors when there is only one hooked up with no load, but if i hook up two it seems to spin them at half the speed and then they can't take the load


When two motors are hooked up to one stepper controller, it makes the "resonance" problem common to all steppers much worse. The result is that you have a much lower speed limit. If you exceed the speed limit, the motors just "thrash" bouncing back and forth between poles. I have experimented with this using various techniques (such as wiring the motors in series instead of parallel) and found no solution at all. With 5/16-18 threaded rod, the speed limit is about 4mm/sec. With an Acme rod, the distance per mm is greater, so the speed limit would be even lower. The speed limit should be set in EEPROM - so that G1 commands that seemingly call for higher speeds will be limited in firmware.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Mooselake » 2015-May-Mon-07-May

Is addition to limiting your max speed make sure your steps/mm are the correct value for your Z screws, so the step rate isn't bonkers.

Slightly OT, but with T8-8 (aka TR8-8)'s 2mm pitch the max speed goes up to around 25mm/s, also supporting that the Z speed is limited by the maximum step rate the motors (and Marlin) will accept. 2 or 4 microsteps/step would be a reasonable setting if you wanted to experiment. At 4mm/sec those little Z motors are gunning for about 10K steps/second, which is getting pretty close to what I've seen as Marlin's limit.

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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Mon-09-May

well i'm using M8 leadscrews, so the pitch is 1.25mm and using repraps step calculator i got 2560 steps. i'm not to sure what the max speed would be but currently it's set to 7.

so i don't think it's a speed issue
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Mon-11-May

after swapping the driver board helped a little, then i swapped the motors which made it so it will sometimes go up and down.

Now ive oiled the screws and rods, and checked that everything lines up. with out the screws attached and no rods going across, they slide about as well as my old z/y box. and only one of the rods seems to be bent slightly. but both will only sometimes move.

I also found a way to put the motors on two different drivers and that still can't get them to move at the same rate when they do move together.

I'm now quite confused
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-May-Mon-18-May

killbox wrote:after swapping the driver board helped a little, then i swapped the motors which made it so it will sometimes go up and down.

Now ive oiled the screws and rods, and checked that everything lines up. with out the screws attached and no rods going across, they slide about as well as my old z/y box. and only one of the rods seems to be bent slightly. but both will only sometimes move.

I also found a way to put the motors on two different drivers and that still can't get them to move at the same rate when they do move together.

I'm now quite confused

With no load on the steppers do they move?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Mon-18-May

yes but at different rates even if they are on different divers or the same one
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby thawkins » 2015-May-Mon-19-May

killbox wrote:yes but at different rates even if they are on different divers or the same one


Are they exactly the same model of motor?, different steppers may have different angles or rotation per step.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Mon-21-May

i have two sets of motors. one that came with the printer and one set that i ordered just for the z axis, both have the correct steps
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Mooselake » 2015-May-Tue-07-May

What are the voltage and current ratings of the new motors? Steppers can be made with a wide range of currents and voltages to give the same power, so it's possible that your motors aren't suited for your drivers. They come in different coil configurations and might require different wiring or a different type of controller. Are they bipolar 4 wire motors? Do you know the make/model number or have a datasheet?

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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Tue-16-May

they are 4 wire bipolar run within the correct voltage for the drivers. now they due pull 1.5amps each. but even splitting them off onto two different drivers does little
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Mooselake » 2015-May-Tue-17-May

killbox wrote:well i'm using M8 leadscrews, so the pitch is 1.25mm and using repraps step calculator i got 2560 steps. i'm not to sure what the max speed would be but currently it's set to 7.

Missed this earlier.

Seven's almost twice what I'd expect would work, way to fast. 2560 x 7 is 18K steps/sec. Try 3.5, bump it to 4 if 3.5 works, down to 3 (new screws are tight) if it doesn't.

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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Tue-20-May

that is the max speed. i run around 2-3
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Mooselake » 2015-May-Wed-08-May

Then we're likely back to bad, or poorly rated, steppers - the only real possibilities are stepper, driver, or mechanical problems. Would it be difficult to put the slower one on another axis, like the extruder, and give it a good test?

A stepper's rated voltage is not the same as the supply voltage you use, and it's extremely common to use a supply voltage that's much higher than the motor. The extra voltage is used to overcome the inductance of the motor and get a better response time, while the actual power dissipation is controlled by the current limit. For example, if those were 12V 1.5A steppers then they wouldn't work very well on our machines. That's why I'm interested in the actual motor specs (a link to the supplier should be OK, too), not saying they're inappropriate, but it'd be nice to rule them out. More info here, if you care.

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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Wed-16-May

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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Mooselake » 2015-May-Thu-08-May

Those specs look good.

A couple more firmware settings to check; make sure the acceleration is set fairly low, somewhere around 30, and that the jerk is close to 5. From my old notes these were the defaults at one time.

Reading back through this topic you said you plugged the two different steppers into two ports. Was that just for testing, or are you trying to drive them separately? Did you recompile the firmware to support using a separate driver for each motor, and does Marlin even support this? Two steppers on one driver is common for 3D printers; it's been done thousands if not hundreds of thousands of times.

Have you verified the motors are wired correctly? I think you've got this because you say they turn, but check anyway. It's pretty easy to determine which pairs of wires drive each coil with an ohmmeter, then wire one motor to the A coil leads, and one pair to the B leads. Don't rely on the colors, especially since you're not using motors prewired for a printrboard. There is no universal stepper motor color coding. It might run backwards (in this case reverse the connector or switch the wires for only one coil), but it should run.

You don't say what controller board you're using. RAMPS, Printrboard (what rev?), or something else?

Since you've tried different drivers with the same results, and the motors don't run correctly when unloaded, you're ruled out the drivers and mechanical issues. That leaves defective/miswired motors, motor current settings (sure you're not on the wrong end of the range?), and firmware settings.

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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Thu-16-May

ok let the spec list begin

RAMPS 1.4 with a mega
235w psu
5 stepstick drivers (Pololu Stepper Driver Board clones from my understanding)
two the other motors i tried where from the site i listed
Both are wired the same as the printrbot ones but they run at 3.0 ohms
the other set is from printrbot, not sure on the specs from them
One motor had 4.4 ohms the other had 2.6 ohms
8mm 1.25 mm pitch screws with brass nuts

I'm using Merlin 1.0.2 pulled from here https://github.com/MarlinFirmware/Marlin on Feb 23 2015
if you go into Configuration_adv.h there is a about a quarter way down that enables you to take the spare driver for use with a duel exturder to be used as a z driver. I enabled this for testing to see if the there was a bottleneck with the amount of amps coming from the driver. no change and I have gone back to using one driver. Both sets of motors exhibit the same behavior of one motor being slower then the other. regardless of if there is one driver or two.

Side note, it seems the original driver is dying due to overheating that happened during testing, i did not have my fans for the driver board running during the testing do to the printer not being finished yet.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Wed-21-May

got it working, posted a double precision mod i think will work. but my hotend broke. and i'm waiting for parts. and i will test out my idea when my hotend is fixed.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-May-Wed-22-May

killbox wrote:got it working, posted a double precision mod i think will work. but my hotend broke. and i'm waiting for parts. and i will test out my idea when my hotend is fixed.

Keep us updated! If it works would you mind me linking it from my Thingiverse post?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-May-Thu-15-May

did it already. as a remix. once i get it to work with the single extruder i'll see about the double
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Jun-Sat-17-Jun

orangefurball

If you don't mind I have a couple of questions about the Jonbot Plus.

1. Where did you source the threaded rod? Smooth rod?
2. Is there anything you would change, update?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Jun-Sat-17-Jun

killbox

Any progress on the double precision mod?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby killbox » 2015-Jun-Sat-19-Jun

nope. my mod does not work. will have to rethink. been busy though
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Jun-Sat-20-Jun

KD6HQ wrote:orangefurball

If you don't mind I have a couple of questions about the Jonbot Plus.

1. Where did you source the threaded rod? Smooth rod?
2. Is there anything you would change, update?


1. Threaded rod - McMaster Carr, Smooth rod - eBay
2. Not really, maybe using 3 or 4 LM8UU bearings for the hot end mount, but it works well with two.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby cacb » 2015-Jun-Sun-02-Jun

Any pictures of the completed Jonbot? The pictures above give an impression, but it would be nice to see it in fully working state!

Or video showing it printing?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Jun-Sun-05-Jun

cacb wrote:Any pictures of the completed Jonbot? The pictures above give an impression, but it would be nice to see it in fully working state!

Or video showing it printing?

I can get some soon, I've been busy recently but it works the exact same as the Printrbot Plus (wood ones, not metal) so you can look that up to get an idea of how it works.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Jun-Mon-16-Jun

Did you change the size of the threaded rod or you using the M6 rod?
Also it looks like the nut from PB ?
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Jun-Mon-17-Jun

KD6HQ wrote:Did you change the size of the threaded rod or you using the M6 rod?
Also it looks like the nut from PB ?

Still 1/4" -16 pitch and yes those are two of the Delrin nuts from PB
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Jul-Sat-13-Jul

orangefurball

I'm having a problem with Marlin, would you mind sharing your "Configuration.h" file?
I'm getting a "Z probe out bed" message and have not been able to find out much about it.

thanks

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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Jul-Sun-11-Jul

KD6HQ wrote:orangefurball

I'm having a problem with Marlin, would you mind sharing your "Configuration.h" file?
I'm getting a "Z probe out bed" message and have not been able to find out much about it.

thanks

kd6hq

My computer's hard drive actually died a few days ago so I don't have it (trying to get it back, along with my Thingystock design) so it may take a bit to produce it, but I will try to reconfigure one in the next couple of days if you don't mind waiting.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Jul-Sun-20-Jul

Been there, not a problem, I still have stuff to do.
Good luck with your recovery.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Jul-Mon-13-Jul

A little while ago I decided to build the recent version of the "Jonbot Plus" assembled / modified by orangefurball. I decided to have it made from ABS, a material that I can not currently print. So I contacted Evan at "makexyz.com". Evan did an excellent job of printing the major parts for me.

I still have a ways to go and have not finished printing out the all of the smaller parts yet. I'm using 500mm rods for all the axis and have found that a possible 16" X 10" bed is the maximum size I could put on the printer. Of course the printed size would be a bit smaller. Since I'm planning on using a heated bed on this one the bed will be adjusted to accommodate a 12.6" x 8.4" heater. According to the manufacture this heater will draw about 17-18 amps when first turned on but should settle down to around 15 amps after the initial startup.

The pictures that I am posting today will give you an idea of the size of the printer. The plywood bed that it is sitting on is 24" x 24" x 3/4". It will need to be bolted down as when the bed shifts it starts to tip over even though all the parts are not on it yet.

To control this printer I am using a RAMPS 1.4 / Arduino 2560 board set. A single extruder with an inductive probe sensor will be used for now. In order to use the single extruder I had to modify the end stop setup a little as mounting holes were not provided in the mount. Other than that nothing else has been changed.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Jul-Tue-21-Jul

Looking good. I think this is the only other one in existence, at least that I know of.

I can't get dual extruders to work at all, not dual E3D v6 hotends or an E3D Cyclops. They're just laying there begging to be used!

Anyway, I plan on reconfiguring Marlin for mine from an older Printrbot official version before the probe was released so I can actually use the Z min endstop as intended. I'll post the configuration.h code here from that.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Jul-Wed-13-Jul

I was planning on using a single extruder and the probe to begin with and then work in to a dual extruder setup.

I'm using Marlin ver. 1.0.2

I have 3 stepper motors setting on the desk with the RAMPS board in a test mode. Along with 2 mechanical end stops, probe and 1 thermistor. In end stop mode I can use the M119 command and they all respond as "Open". Then I can "home" the axis in Repetier using the x, y and z icons and the motors spin until the end stop or probe are activated. Or I can switch out the probe with another mechanical switch with the same results.

If I activate the "Auto Bed Leveling" routine in Marlin then try to home Z I get an error message "Z probe out bed" which I take to mean that the Z probe is outside of the parameters. So far I have not been able to find anything out about this message but I'm still working on it.

What problems are you have with the extruder setup?

Might be interesting to see the Cyclops on the Thingybot.

Don
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby Mach-Chris » 2015-Jul-Wed-14-Jul

I **THINK** Z probe out of bed means that one of the desired probing positions will fall outside of your defined print area. This may be controlled by a few factors both in configuration.h (probing positions are defined as something like "max X travel -10" ) and the M212 X Y values, which describe the probe offset. It has been quite awhile since I've played around with that whole deal but hopefully that will help get you started in the right direction.....maybe.....
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby KD6HQ » 2015-Jul-Wed-19-Jul

Thanks Mach-Chris, I will look along those lines. Unfortunately the M212 command is not available in this version of Marlin 1.0.2. Even if I enter M501 it is not listed among the settings. Currently I have my imaginary bed set up for X=205, Y=205 and Z=200.

What's interesting to me is that if a run G28 or G29 commands all the motors seem to respond appropriately. It's just in the manual mode that I get the error message. So it's just when I try and to a manual "home" that I get the error message. I just have not found it yet.

It must be fairly obscure, as no one on the RepRap forum has responded yet.

thanks

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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby oldswamm » 2015-Oct-Tue-12-Oct

Now I know I’m a newbie. So much so that I only decided to buy my first 3d printer about a week ago, and still don’t have one. I’m having slovenian6474 print Jon’s all printed simple right now.

I intend to print this one (the Jonbot), on a ‘when the printer isn’t busy’ basis. But I would like a few modifications, which I’m not capable of, mind. Therefore, I’m throwing this out as a request/suggestion.

It seems to me that the beauty of the x axis on this machine is that it’s light (don’t have to move the rods), which make for fast acceleration. The Y still moves the rods, therefore I would like to minimize y, and maximize x. Of course making x greater increases the inertia of the X axis, so, with the y stepper housing mirrored, like you originally planned (below), we could use 2 steppers, for better acceleration with a wide bed (at least MY logic says so).

jonbot1.jpg

jonbot2.jpg


Then a slightly modified version of your new base piece (in red above), with the bearing centered could be used to space them even farther. I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard for you, OrangeFurBall (I couldn’t, yet) to make versions from 50 to 200mm or so. That way, any width could be built, and a third rod could be used, or, with multiple center pieces, a fourth, or fifth…. Of course each multiple would have to be printed on an increasingly wide printer. Or.
jonbot4.jpg

With 3 or more rods, could the end pieces be made in multiple sections? One piece for 2 rods, 2piece for 3, etc. If each section had half of the rod clamp, you could adjust pressure on the ends of the rods by tightening one clamp bolt and loosening another (trying to look on the plus side of having to split it for smaller printers). If there were arms on these pieces, like at the ends, you could tweak a sagging bed too (thinner aluminum, lighter bed?).

The X-Z pieces and the hot end holder could also be modified for larger rods, to eliminate sag, for those that want it 4’ wide.

I would like both axis double precision. My suggestion for the X axis (exaggerated, obviously):
jonbot3.jpg


I would also like to have a turret setup for 4 bowdans, someday. Looks like a great idea to me, even if you only want 2. Keeps multiple hot ends away from the work. You also don’t lose any work area. If you only want 2 hot ends, you could also use a rocker, with an RC servo and stops (again, lighter).

Thanks for all the great design efforts!
Bob
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Oct-Tue-13-Oct

oldswamm wrote:Now I know I’m a newbie. So much so that I only decided to buy my first 3d printer about a week ago, and still don’t have one. I’m having slovenian6474 print Jon’s all printed simple right now.

I intend to print this one (the Jonbot), on a ‘when the printer isn’t busy’ basis. But I would like a few modifications, which I’m not capable of, mind. Therefore, I’m throwing this out as a request/suggestion.

It seems to me that the beauty of the x axis on this machine is that it’s light (don’t have to move the rods), which make for fast acceleration. The Y still moves the rods, therefore I would like to minimize y, and maximize x. Of course making x greater increases the inertia of the X axis, so, with the y stepper housing mirrored, like you originally planned (below), we could use 2 steppers, for better acceleration with a wide bed (at least MY logic says so).

jonbot1.jpg

jonbot2.jpg


Then a slightly modified version of your new base piece (in red above), with the bearing centered could be used to space them even farther. I’m sure it wouldn’t be hard for you, OrangeFurBall (I couldn’t, yet) to make versions from 50 to 200mm or so. That way, any width could be built, and a third rod could be used, or, with multiple center pieces, a fourth, or fifth…. Of course each multiple would have to be printed on an increasingly wide printer. Or.
jonbot4.jpg

With 3 or more rods, could the end pieces be made in multiple sections? One piece for 2 rods, 2piece for 3, etc. If each section had half of the rod clamp, you could adjust pressure on the ends of the rods by tightening one clamp bolt and loosening another (trying to look on the plus side of having to split it for smaller printers). If there were arms on these pieces, like at the ends, you could tweak a sagging bed too (thinner aluminum, lighter bed?).

The X-Z pieces and the hot end holder could also be modified for larger rods, to eliminate sag, for those that want it 4’ wide.

I would like both axis double precision. My suggestion for the X axis (exaggerated, obviously):
jonbot3.jpg


I would also like to have a turret setup for 4 bowdans, someday. Looks like a great idea to me, even if you only want 2. Keeps multiple hot ends away from the work. You also don’t lose any work area. If you only want 2 hot ends, you could also use a rocker, with an RC servo and stops (again, lighter).

Thanks for all the great design efforts!
Bob


Hello Bob,

Right, all these are great ideas, I'm just a little bit confused.

You want the X axis to be larger (you mention 4 feet), this can be accomplished by simply adding an extension piece between the two bottom center frame pieces. Then just printing even longer bed pieces.

You also mention using thicker rods to avoid sag, I'm not entirely sure that's necessary. While using Bowden setups, there is not that much weight on the hot end mount (the only part that is moving on the X axis) so the 8mm rods do a great job. There really is not any sag unless you already have a bent rod.

It'd be relatively easy to add thicker rods to the X exis, not quite as easy for the Z though. The X axis is basically just a modification of the bearing mounts for what was originally the Y on Jon's design. There is around 14mm of space to work with and I only use 8mm for the rods currently.

As for the double prescision, this is going to seem lazy but I really don't think I want to bother. I don't see any differences in the X and Y (Y already has double pre. mechanism) and I'm a bit preoccupied with my Thingybot line of printers. That being said, I can make some extension pieces if you'd like a longer X axis, that is only a few minutes of work compared to a complete remodel.

Let me know if I understood this correctly.

- Matt
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby oldswamm » 2015-Oct-Tue-13-Oct

I don't intend to go to 4 feet, just saying it could be done.
You didn't comment on the idea of using 2 y axis steppers, which would require the other housing be mirrored.
Then the bed ends would have to be lengthened slightly.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby orangefurball » 2015-Oct-Tue-14-Oct

oldswamm wrote:I don't intend to go to 4 feet, just saying it could be done.
You didn't comment on the idea of using 2 y axis steppers, which would require the other housing be mirrored.
Then the bed ends would have to be lengthened slightly.


I totally understand that! The Y axis is so light that it could probably still be used on 8mm rods.

Anyway, I don't really see the point to using two Y axis motors, it would probably just be better to use a beefier stepper motor. Adding two motors wouldn't really do too much other than use extra power in my opinion, but if you'd like to experiment with it I can whip up some longer bed ends soon.
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby oldswamm » 2015-Oct-Tue-15-Oct

If you think it's a waste of time, then I'm sure it is. I knew I was premature, jumping in here where I have no experience.
I'll leave you alone, at least till I've started printing it, and can make a more specific request. :)
Thanks,
Bob
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Re: Jonbot Plus - a new fully printed printer!

Postby frankv » 2015-Oct-Tue-16-Oct

I've been working on JonBot/Trirod as well, particularly the X axis.

My approach to the X axis is quite different from the PrintrBot and JonBot mechanisms. That's partly because I wanted to be able to print the Trirod parts on my Simple Makers 100x100x100 build platform, and partly because I wanted to extend the Trirod to 300x300x300. One of the things I didn't like about the original design was that the bearings are mounted close together. Any slight error would get magnified 30-fold. There's also a large scope for flexing of the bars. So I've mounted the bearings 150mm apart, 75mm in from each side of the platform. The rods don't move, but consequently must be about 500mm long. This means the bending loads on the rods & platform are more or less the same as for the Simple Makers. I also moved the belt to the middle of the platform, to minimise twisting forces when accelerating. And moved the X motor to beyond the end of the X platform motion, so that the platform could be mounted lower, for lower bending forces on the mounts. And changed the belt path to be double-precision.

Files are available via OnShape.com -- search Public documents for "Trirod X axis". Most of the design was done with FreeCAD, so download X-axis.FCstd if you want to make it. I've only moved a couple of the parts to OnShape so far. If anyone wants the files and can't get them via OnShape, get back to me.

I've also done some redesign of the Z-box, since (a) it no longer needs to mount the X-axis motor, and (b) the original wasn't printable on my little printer. search for "Trirod Z axis".

CAVEAT: Whilst all this is built, and looks good, I haven't yet finished building this printer. Hence I don't know whether this will all work in reality.

I plan to (at least initially) stick with the standard Trirod Y axis, but have some ideas for improvement of this... I think the best design would be a "gantry" system similar to the Prusa i3... a carriage for the extruder/hotend would travel along stationary rods. The Y-axis motor should be mounted at one end so that it also doesn't have to physically move when the head is moved in the Y-axis. I guess you could have 2 Y-axis motors, but I don't see the point. Two Z-axis motors, one at the bottom of each upright, would be used to lift the Y-axis.

For anyone interested, I've also designed a mount for the Diamond hotend for the Trirod. This includes a radial fan mount for filament cooling as well as the standard axial fan to cool the heatsinks. Search OnShape.com for "Trirod Diamond Extruder Head". This is even more untested than the other stuff above, but all the components do at least fit together, but I think I'll want to reposition the radial fan.
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