Better than canvas and finally z stability

Talk about materials used in 3D printing

Better than canvas and finally z stability

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Nov-Tue-13-Nov

Well, it has been a long and arduous adventure, but I think I finally have my Z axis problems solved.

As those of you who have been following my posts know, I have a Printrbot Plus (vintage January 2013) and I primarily print with nylon. Most of the time I have used a bed of canvas glued down to glass or Garolite. But I was never really completely satisified.

The problem was that I did not have good repetability for the bed-to-hot end clearance. Sometimes my prints were not smooshed down enough and would lift off at the corners or all over; other times they were too deeply embedded in the canvas and were impossible to pull off. I've broken glass plates and also broken the glue bonding canvas to glass or Garolite when the plastic was too deeply embedded.

So my first approach was to build a bracket for a dial indicator, so I could check and adjust my z clearance more accurately. This helped, but did not seem to solve the problem.

So then I built an optical "endstop" for zeroing the Z axis. This is extremely repeatable and extremely easy to adjust (WAY better than the stock screw hidden in the back corner). This helped quite a bit, but I was still having a problem with non-repeatability of the Z position.

Finally, I took a straightedge to look at the table for the Y axis. It was warped. If I made the straightedge tangent to the table at the front end, then the straightedge was 4mm above the table at the back end. And everything changed it: heating the bed, ambient humidity, the phase of the moon...

So next I added aluminum angles to stiffen the bed and hold it straight (thanks, Mooselake!).

Finally, I have achieved repeatability!! :D :D

Also, I thought that maybe canvas was coarser than necessary. I originally chose canvas in part because it's fairly thick and therefore I could have glue on one side holding it down to the bed while the other side would be glue-free. But thanks to a suggestion from Rsilvers I realized that I could use spray adhesive and therefore use thinner and flatter fabric.

So now I have cotton muslin that's a little coarser than bedsheet material (roughly equivalent to the texture of denim, but not colored). I glued it down to glass using Loctite Spray Adhesive #300 - which claims to be heat resistant as well as claiming to work on glass (the 3M sprays did not mention either of these features). I used the two-coat procedure on each surface before bonding.

It turned out that the optimum Z clearance for me using nylon to print tall, narrow objects on this fabric is zero. That is, I can't fit even a 0.05mm automotive feeler gauge under the printhead. I have my layer height set to 0.25mm and when I measure a skirt, the thickness is from 0.17 to 0.25mm - consistent with a "zero" clearance between the head and the bed when Z is zeroed. Also, I have my first layer set to a "trace width" of 400% of the other layers. So I'm pushing down a lot of plastic, but it spreads out and gets a grip. I have no raft, but I do have a Brim turned on, 5mm wide.

If I need to print an object with an extremely large footprint, I probably will give myself a little clearance so that it will be easier to remove.

I'm a Happy RetireeJay :D :D
  • 2

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 4943
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 496

Better than canvas and finally z stability

Sponsor

Sponsor
 

Re: Better than canvas and finally z stability

Postby REPRAP SQUAD » 2013-Nov-Tue-14-Nov

I'm glad to hear your z axis problems are solved. I also added aluminum channeling to the bed and sub mount which did make quite a noticable difference in keeping everything relatively flat. My z axis homing switch setup does need some work still. I recently purchased a dial gauge and originally planned on printing out your mount but if I remember correctly printrbot has a slight variation in x axis rod distance between the plus v1 and v2. Most people don't realize how important it is to have an accurate z setup. Congrats on your recent win during the battle of the z axis!
  • 0

Twitter: @REPRAPSQUAD
Check it out: Build logs, 3D printer news and all things Printrbot--http://reprapsquad.wordpress.com
PC Case Mods 3D printed:
http://www.enviousmods.com

RepRap Squad's The 1st Simple (XL)
* Custom built that towers over the LC

Printrbot Plus V2 W/
*Dual extruder PB Version (2-Ubis 1.75mm hotends)
*Heavily Modded and all axis extended
User avatar
REPRAP SQUAD
Metal hotbed butt
 
Posts: 1629
Joined: 2013-Feb-Sun-11-Feb
Location: Pacific NW Oregon-US
Reputation: 71

Re: Better than canvas and finally z stability

Postby RetireeJay » 2014-Jan-Wed-21-Jan

By the way, I'm also using glass with glue stick as a printing surface. One big advantage compared to cloth or Garolite is that the flat plate (the glass) can just be washed and re-used; with cloth you have to use a permanent glue to attach it to a flat substrate, which is not especially easy to do. When the cloth wears out, the whole assembly needs to be discarded. Also, the spray glues I mentioned aren't really strong enough.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 4943
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 496

Re: Better than canvas and finally z stability

Postby Gleedaniel13 » 2014-Feb-Wed-08-Feb

Well, it has been a long and arduous adventure, but I think I finally have my Z axis problems solved.

As those of you who have been following my posts know, I have a Printrbot Plus (vintage January 2013) and I primarily print with nylon. Most of the time I have used a bed of canvas glued down to glass or Garolite. But I was never really completely satisified.


That was a very creative idea. I like it and surely it will work nicely.
  • 0

Gleedaniel13
Loading filament...
 
Posts: 18
Joined: 2013-Sep-Mon-23-Sep
Reputation: 0

Re: Better than canvas and finally z stability

Postby adamrose045 » 2014-Oct-Mon-01-Oct

I recently purchased a dial gauge and originally planned on printing out your mount but if I remember correctly printrbot has a slight variation in x axis rod distance between the plus v1 and v2. Most people don't realize how important it is to have an accurate z setup. Congrats on your recent win during the battle of the z axis!
  • 0

GuL
adamrose045
Waiting to connect to printer...
 
Posts: 1
Joined: 2014-Oct-Mon-01-Oct
Reputation: -50

Re: Better than canvas and finally z stability

Postby Mooselake » 2014-Oct-Mon-16-Oct

This is a good example of a spammer probe, so I'll leave it for reference.

It looks relevant, but if you read backwards it's a copy and paste from from REPRAP SQUAD's post above. In addition it's on an old topic, the poster registered and quickly posted, the user name follows a common spammer pattern, and the originating IP has been recently reported to stopforumspam.com. Not very original<sigh>.

I do have to say the spammer has good taste; Jay's dial gauge bed leveling device is a definite winner. Build and use this, and there won't be any need for automatic "bed leveling".

Kirk
  • 0

Modified KickStarter Classic Plus 7/2012
KS Thingybot Delta Pro 10/31/16
User avatar
Mooselake
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 3591
Joined: 2011-Dec-Tue-23-Dec
Location: Moose Swamp, Upper Michigan, USA
Reputation: 172

Re: Better than canvas and finally z stability

Postby thawkins » 2014-Oct-Mon-20-Oct

Mooselake wrote:This is a good example of a spammer probe, so I'll leave it for reference.

It looks relevant, but if you read backwards it's a copy and paste from from REPRAP SQUAD's post above. In addition it's on an old topic, the poster registered and quickly posted, the user name follows a common spammer pattern, and the originating IP has been recently reported to stopforumspam.com. Not very original<sigh>.

I do have to say the spammer has good taste; Jay's dial gauge bed leveling device is a definite winner. Build and use this, and there won't be any need for automatic "bed leveling".

Kirk


DAMM i missed that one, i have been shutting down about half a dozen spammers a week, and since im in thier timezone i can often flush them out before you guys wake up. i will have to pay more attention,
  • 0

Jonbot+
225mm x 200mm - Heated Bed
RAMPS 1.4 running Marlin 1.1.0
Full Graphic display.
-------------------------------
Zen Toolworks CNC/3d printer
230mmx360mm bed
Dual j-head hotends.
Dual heated beds.
RAMPS 1.4 running Marlin 0.98
-------------------------------
Flashforge 3d Creator Pro
Dual Extruder
220x143x150mm
Mightyboard rev e, runnimg Sailfish 7.7r1234
-------------------------------
Photon, self designed printed printer.
User avatar
thawkins
Print winner 2nd
Print winner 2nd
 
Posts: 1636
Joined: 2013-Aug-Sun-10-Aug
Location: Manila, Philippines
Reputation: 172

Re: Better than canvas and finally z stability

Postby Mooselake » 2014-Oct-Tue-11-Oct

They look like normal posts at first glance, recognizing them is more of a gestalt thing.

I've been dealing with them for darn near 20 years. Maybe I need more hobbies...

Kirk
  • 0

Modified KickStarter Classic Plus 7/2012
KS Thingybot Delta Pro 10/31/16
User avatar
Mooselake
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 3591
Joined: 2011-Dec-Tue-23-Dec
Location: Moose Swamp, Upper Michigan, USA
Reputation: 172


Return to Material talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron