Printing with Taulman 645

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Printing with Taulman 645

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Aug-Mon-15-Aug

I've been working with Taulman 645 for a while now, and I really like it. It seems to be a little more flexible than the 618, so when you go to remove a part from the bed, it actually deforms a little locally where you are pushing up on it - without cracking or breaking. For big pieces, this means that you remove the part incrementally instead of "all at once." The "all at once" requirement of the stiffer materials means you generate a lot more force locally at your pry point. I've literally broken glass beds underneath my canvas due to the extreme force.

The 645 material is translucent on the spool, and it's possible to print thin layers that are translucent. I made a diffuser for an LED nightlight that came out very nicely. This is for an LED assembly that screws into a standard nightlight socket (a standard nightlight would be too hot).

I used Slic3r to generate the solid with no infill, no top layers, and a single layer wall (but I needed the skirt to prime my extruder; the developmental "vase" mode did not seem to do that for me). The trick was to realize that the optimum temperature for generating a clear translucent wall is fairly low. For my extruder, I get excellent results at only 215C.
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Printing with Taulman 645

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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby MileHigh3DII » 2013-Nov-Fri-01-Nov

Is anyone else seeing the 645 as oblong, not round? I'm getting 1.85 to 2.00 depending if I read it N-S or E-W.

I had some initial success with it a few months ago after figuring out the pig tailing due to issues with the tension on the extruder arm. I started getting bubbling, so I assumed it was moisture so I put it aside until I could dry it out. I built some isolation chambers to hold the spools with some desiccant in air tight containers. When I put the spool in a toaster oven at the 'warm' setting at 150F, the black spool the filament came on warped!! It is a small oven, and I think the top heating element gets hot trying to heat the chamber and it was hotter than 150F. What are the spools made off? PVC? I thought people had dried theirs in ovens?

I just dried some loose filament and tried a print. Not good feeding, which I should have known from the wacky E calibration I got....

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about the 645.

Man, I can't get this to give me rational E calibration numbers. I'm getting 100 point swings based on 20mm extrusions. I need to sleep on it...
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Nov-Fri-09-Nov

Hmmm... I have a 3mm Wade's extruder (geared) and I have not encountered those problems. But maybe the 1.75 material isn't quite as well behaved. I suggest you contact Talulman directly about the problem. Maybe your spool is outside of spec and he would replace it (??).

I've gotten to like 645 more and more. It's what I used in my post about nylon being tougher than nails. It has excellent layer-to-layer adhesion.
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby MileHigh3DII » 2013-Nov-Fri-17-Nov

It seems to print shells fine, it messes up on the fill. I wonder if I just need to slow down the infill. It is a bit squishy which seems to make it easy to deform. Plus, with some of it on the large size, and a slight deform there might be more drag.

I'm surprised that you get it to work at 215? Most others are around 230, albeit different machines.
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Nov-Fri-17-Nov

MileHigh3DII wrote:I'm surprised that you get it to work at 215? Most others are around 230, albeit different machines.


Good catch. I'm actually using 225 most of the time. 215 does not give the layer-to-layer adhesion I'm looking for.
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby drawcut » 2013-Nov-Fri-19-Nov

Nylon in 1.75mm tends to pigtail on me a lot more than 3mm. Seems like the flexibility of nylon is more of a challenge to get 1.75 feeding right. I've seen 645 being oval in cross section but usually it's consistent so it still feeds at a constant rate. I think I saw something to that effect on Taulman's site.
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby MileHigh3DII » 2013-Nov-Sat-19-Nov

I saw the same inter-layer adhesion issue at 215-220, but I also think that I was still under extruding. I'm running a tweaked PB+V2 and when I turned the extrusion down to 15mm/min to run the calibration, I finally got consistent numbers. I now run 230-235.

I've been doing a single wall business card holder in vase mode and it is coming out pretty well. The thins walls warp more than when I run in PLA, but it is 'tougher', more resilent.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:13265

I finally picked a diameter of 1.84 and that seems to be working. When I do more fill intensive parts I'll see how that works.

I did have to slow down my setting in Slic3r to 15 for all extrusions (shells, fill). I did this because the initial layers were OK when I had it set at 30mm with a 70% reduction in speed for the first layer. Now I run all extrusion and all layers at 15. I may bump it up to 20 and see how it works. I ran no fan, but this was single layer.

Is it me, or does the printrbot seem not to obey the speed commands. I have it set to extrude at 15 when it was at 30 before and it doesn't seem to be half the speed. Using a 0.4 nozzle, what is everyone else using as a speed?

The 645 with 1.2mm or retract gives nice clean breaks in the bussines card holder above.

Looking forward to playing with this more.

I do really like my bed system. Room temp, kapton tape with kids glue stick smeared on top. No delam with the high aspect ratio card holder above. A couple of drops of water and a finger to spread the glue out evenly after a print.
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby Nickies08 » 2013-Dec-Mon-00-Dec

How do you avoid print curl with 645? I've used blue painter's tape and I've even used canvas glued to glass to try printing some models. I've tried every combination of heated bed, non heated bed, cooling fan and without cooling fan. But the base of the models always start to curl upwards. It actually managed to stretch the canvas and pull it off the glass around the print. I thought this stuff had a low shrinkage ratio.... I don't have this problem when I print the model in ABS or PLA.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:114571

This is the model that is giving me the most trouble. All the edges want to pull towards the center of the model when it is printing. Should I just get a cheap piece of wood and clamp it to my bed to try printing on?
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Dec-Mon-10-Dec

I've had good results with two different beds:

1) Canvas or muslin cloth glued very securely to a rigid bed. You have to use a very high-strength glue. This bed works at room temperature.
2) Garolite heated to about 55 - 60C. I lightly sand the Garolite with 440 grit sandpaper before I start to use it.

It is EXTREMELY CRITICAL to get the Z zero clearance just right. If your printhead is too low for the first layer, you may not be able to remove the part without damaging it (or the bed) because the printhead was actually in contact with the bed, heating the bed. But if you don't mash enough plastic down, then the part tends to lift. Note how hard I've worked to get the Z setting stable, repeatable, and predictable. viewtopic.php?f=74&t=5598 (Although I'm not satisfied with the gluing job I did. Maybe the Loctite spray glue is not good enough, or maybe it's weak because I was applying it in a chilly garage.)

So the name of the game is to get lots of plastic down on the first layer, pushing it down to the bed firmly, but without the nozzle touching the bed. Here's how I did my last part: with the muslin covering over glass, I adjusted z zero so the printhead was actually in light contact with the bed itself (no sheet of paper). I'm printing with 0.25mm layers, and I specified a 0.4mm first layer (160%) and also specified a z offset of minus 0.25mm. The net result of these gyrations is that the first layer is printed at a printhead height of 0.15mm (0.4 minus 0.25) but with the amount of plastic that would normally be extruded for a 0.4mm thick layer; this mashes the first layer down pretty well.

The thermal expansion coefficient of Nylon 6 is not dramatically different from the thermal coefficient of ABS.
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby Nickies08 » 2013-Dec-Wed-12-Dec

I've managed to get a working solution using your advice. I used my dremil and a stone bit to completely roughen the surface of a piece of glass. I then used high strength epoxy to bond my canvas to the glass. Needless to say, the canvas does not stretch now.

Secondly, I've noticed the main reason I have to print at really low speeds is the hotend's inability to heat the nylon quickly. I have to run my ubis at 245C to get the Tailman 645 to melt and if I try to set for 250C the software shuts everything down. I'm guessing it is a firmware maximum. But anyways, while trying to adjust my E value I noticed a skipping that would occur. The default 60mm speed setting in repitier was trying to feed the nylon quicker than the hotend could melt it. So this leads me to another series of questions;
-is anyone using a hotend that can reach higher temperatures? Did you have to update the firmware to reach these higher temperatures?
Does the higher temperatures allow you to print faster with Taulman 645?
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Dec-Wed-15-Dec

Nickies08 wrote: I've noticed the main reason I have to print at really low speeds is the hotend's inability to heat the nylon quickly. I have to run my ubis at 245C to get the Tailman 645 to melt and if I try to set for 250C the software shuts everything down. I'm guessing it is a firmware maximum. But anyways, while trying to adjust my E value I noticed a skipping that would occur. The default 60mm speed setting in repitier was trying to feed the nylon quicker than the hotend could melt it. So this leads me to another series of questions;
-is anyone using a hotend that can reach higher temperatures? Did you have to update the firmware to reach these higher temperatures?
Does the higher temperatures allow you to print faster with Taulman 645?


I would have to wonder whether either your thermistor or my thermistor is pretty far out of calibration.
I'm running Taulman 645, 3mm through my geared Ubis hot end set to 225C.
My nozzle is 0.4mm. Recently I've been printing at 0.25mm layer height, but I've also used 0.30mm
My Slic3r speed setting for perimeters and infill is 60mm/s.

So why is your experience so different from mine?
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby Nickies08 » 2013-Dec-Wed-16-Dec

Wow, that is a big difference! I'm using a brand new 3mm ubis that is only a couple weeks old. All my settings from other filaments work fine so it doesn't seem to be off temperature wise. I'm printing at 25mm/s to get a decent print.

At the normal 60mm/s manual extrude setting: if I put a mark on the nylon with a sharpie and do a 10mm extrude, I will see the line move down and bounce back up because the line is being pushed down faster than it can melt. I even increases the bolt tension on my extruder against the hobbed bolt from 5mm to 7mm trying to see if a firmer grip would help but it never. I had to lower the manual extrude speed to 30mm/s before it would move at a constant speed so I could calibrate my E value.
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Dec-Wed-17-Dec

Nickies08 wrote:At the normal 60mm/s manual extrude setting


Oh, we're not talking about the same thing!

In Repetier's Manual screen, my Extrude rate is set to 5000mm/minute, which is 83.3mm/sec... BUT the limit for extruder rate is set in EEPROM at 31.4mm/sec. So regardless of what Repetier or G-Code says, the 'bot will never ever try to extrude faster than that. In fact, I have done some tests with other axes and I'm fairly well convinced that the 'bot will limit itself to the maximum rate of the slowest axis, and scale all the other axis motions to match.

That said, an input rate of 31mm/sec of filament is WAY faster than you would ever use in practice. If my FEEDRATE (speed of the head in X-Y) is 60mm/sec, and I am laying down a continuous thread that's 0.4mm thick (give or take a little), that's pi*r^2 * 60 = 7.5 mm^3 per second. But if the extruder can handle 31.4mm/sec of 3mm diameter filament coming in, that's 424 mm^3 per second available.
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby Nickies08 » 2013-Dec-Wed-17-Dec

Correction.......I DID HAVE a new ubis. I came home from work to find this
[img]http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/05/atu5ejet.jpg[/img][img]http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/05/a4y6u9yj.jpg[/img][img]http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/05/dumybu8u.jpg[/img]

Had set my printer up for a 7hr print while I was at work and it apparently went to hell! I have an order waiting to be filled and no spare hotend because that was my spare.
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Dec-Wed-19-Dec

YIKES! :o
So sorry that happened!

(But I guess the good news is that the Ubis hot end was the only loss. It could have been worse. Unattended operation is perhaps not such a great idea, eh?)
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Printing with Taulman 645

Postby Nickies08 » 2013-Dec-Wed-21-Dec

I managed to salvage the hotend but not the red insulator. However, I order two spare ubis just in case stuff goes wrong again. As for printing speeds, here is my current slic3r setting that I am using to print with.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1386209032.223749.jpg


How do yours compare?
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Dec-Thu-11-Dec

Here are my EEPROM settings and my Slic3r speed settings. (Note that I've cut one of the "microstepping" jumpers on my Printrboard, so my steps per mm for Z are one fourth of typical). I'm printing thru a 0.4mm nozzle, 0.25mm layer height, at 225C.

I did have some problem with under-extrusion a while back, but I tracked it down to a problem with filament alignment: the incoming filament was rubbing on the side of the wooden assembly before reaching the hobbed bolt, because the "groove" on the bolt was not centered. I re-aligned the hobbed bolt to be perfectly centered in the space. (I also have a filament guide for incoming filament to keep the filament in a straight line from top to bottom of the assembly.)

MyFirmwareEEPROMSettings.JPG


MySlic3rSpeedSettings.JPG
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby MileHigh3DII » 2013-Dec-Fri-01-Dec

I'm closer to Nickies speed settings in Slic3r.

I've got a few big, non crititcal things to print for Christmas and then I'm going to be getting back to 645. Looking to do a feed chute for my Filastruder in 645.
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby Nickies08 » 2013-Dec-Tue-21-Dec

I came across an issue today. I printed a nice cup out of Taulman 645 and IV came out looking exactly like one I made with ABS yesterday. Only problem is that the bottom leaks! It seems that for some reason the infill did not connect to itself, almost like there is not enough material laid out in each pass. But my extrusion values are correct and it is evident from the rest of the cup that everything is setup great. Any ideas? Should I change some settings for material laid out hiring infill?

[img]http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/01/erazy4yr.jpg[/img][img]http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/01/5yne8yvy.jpg[/img][img]http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/01/01/e6yvy2u8.jpg[/img]
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby RetireeJay » 2014-Jan-Wed-10-Jan

Yes, I've seen this too. I'm calling it inconsistent under-extrusion. I think if you have full trace widths all the time, that you can print layers that are watertight. Although Taulman does have a Thingiverse posting about a "permanent coffee filter" that does not seem to require any special settings to be porous.

I think it may have something to do with the feed rate (thus the extrusion rate). Your "infill" feed rate is probably higher than your "perimeters" feed rate, leading to an under-extrusion during infill while perimeters look fine.

My extruder was becoming inconsistent: sometimes a manual click of the 5mm extrude would move the filament 5mm, and sometimes only 3 or less. So I'm in the process right now of rebuilding my extruder with a new hobbed bolt and a new Hot End. I hope it fixes the problem. I know if I slow down the extrusion rate and increase the temperature I can get consistent feeding. (That is, I could before I ripped apart the Hot End to see how it is put together!)

3D printing is still an adventure, isn't it? ;)
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Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby Nickies08 » 2014-Jan-Wed-12-Jan

My speeds are actually all at 30 for printing with Taulman, the exception being the outside perimeter is set at 85% of original speed. I changed my infill settings in the advanced field so all my infills are at 125% of infill width. I did a print of a different object that I needed to print and I can see that the infill is solid and smooth. It seems to have compensated for any difference in width that I was having.
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby MileHigh3DII » 2016-Feb-Mon-12-Feb

I finally got back into using the 645. I was getting some bad slip and kinking so I went with the geared extruder set up on my PB+ (1404?) Dual. That stopped the kinking, but I still got slip. Played all around with the tension, but still got issues. I noticed the extruder was pretty hot and that the 645 becomes pretty pliable. I moved my fans from below to the top in front of the extruders. They keep them cool and I don't get slipping anymore, as long as I'm at 15mm/sec (0.4 noz, 0.3 layers at 235C). That is slow. About half or more than my ABS speeds (though at .2mm). I bumped up the speed to 120% from 100% in repetier and it starting to knock.

I'm getting good starting adhesion, (50C bed, Kapton, gluestick) and I can print smaller items (under 50mm square) well, but I started a larger print shaped like an L at its base and it is starting to pull up in the corners pretty bad. I've just wasted 12 hours. I didn't think that the 645 was supposed to curl? this is worse than ABS. At least the interlayer adhesion is good

I like ABS for the speed and the ability to smooth it, but the interlayer adhesion and bed security stink. 645 seems good, but I'm concerned about the warping- but I'm starting to wonder if I'm just underextruding a bit? I haven't totally dialed in the new geared extruder and maybe the interlayer adhesion is over powering the bed adhesion?
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MileHigh3DII
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Re: Printing with Taulman 645

Postby MileHigh3DII » 2016-Apr-Thu-23-Apr

I found that my geared head extruder was not feeding the 645. The 645 had gone from 1.80ish to 1.9 as the run progressed and the extruder is too tight for that. At least that is what I'm thinking since I couldn't feed it by hand. Running some Bridge that is 1.65 and we'll see if my theory is right.
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