Printing with Taulman nylon 618

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Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby wd5gnr » 2013-Jan-Sat-01-Jan

My this looks interesting: http://www.taulman3d.com/index.html

From what I hear on Twitter, does not stick to glass -- print on wood with a wide brim. Runs out of the extruder, apparently. The Ubis can't quite get to the temp it wants for maximum strength, but apparently results are still pretty good.

If I can get about 5 consecutive days of good prints I may order some. And it looks like I am getting there ;-))
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Printing with Taulman nylon 618

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Re: Nylon 618

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Jan-Sat-03-Jan

Check out this topic. Cheaper, too.

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Re: Nylon 618

Postby wd5gnr » 2013-Jan-Sat-10-Jan

Yes I have seen this here and elsewhere. However, from what I understand the trimmer line has fiberglass in it as well and I fear that will eventually give you extruder problems and possibly print problems as well.
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Re: Nylon 618

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Jan-Sat-19-Jan

Not every trimmer line is the same :) The original poster has been using this particular line (and gives a link to it on Amazon) without any clogging problems, so it should be safe - you're right, random weedwhacker twine isn't a good idea.

I got a spool to help fill out a recent amazon order (yes, I know, $20 to save a few bucks of shipping) but haven't gotten to it yet - mine is in the kitty litter dryer box being dewatered. Looks like acetone might slowly dissolve nylon - I'll stick some line in a jar with some acetone and see if it dissolves and leaves any residue.

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Re: Nylon 618

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Jan-Tue-15-Jan

Update - acetone doesn't touch it. Know of any solvents that you'd have/want to use at home that will dissolve nylon? Not so sure I'd want strong acids sitting around...

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Re: Nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Jan-Tue-16-Jan

Mooselake wrote:Update - acetone doesn't touch it. Know of any solvents that you'd have/want to use at home that will dissolve nylon? Not so sure I'd want strong acids sitting around...

Kirk


http://www.newmantools.com/pipestoppers ... nce_nt.pdf

time to break out my bottle of 86% phosphoric acid
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Re: Nylon 618

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Jan-Wed-00-Jan

Thanks! I've got some muriatic acid from a tile job that might work.

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Re: Nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Jan-Wed-10-Jan

Mooselake wrote:Thanks! I've got some muriatic acid from a tile job that might work.

Kirk


That is diluted hydrochloric acid. not sure if that would work. it would be nice to find a non-acid that is common, not too harmful that is a solvent.
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Re: Nylon 618

Postby holmes4 » 2013-Jan-Wed-11-Jan

plexus wrote:That is diluted hydrochloric acid. not sure if that would work. it would be nice to find a non-acid that is common, not too harmful that is a solvent.


I think dihydrogen monoxide would meet that definition, though I don't think it works on nylon. It's typically harmful only if inhaled in large quantities.
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Re: Nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan

holmes4 wrote:
plexus wrote:That is diluted hydrochloric acid. not sure if that would work. it would be nice to find a non-acid that is common, not too harmful that is a solvent.


I think dihydrogen monoxide would meet that definition, though I don't think it works on nylon. It's typically harmful only if inhaled in large quantities.


I'm drinking a glass of dihydrogen monoxide as we speak!
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Re: Nylon 618

Postby holmes4 » 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan

Well, I was going to suggest hydrooxic acid, but you said non-acid.... It is a powerful solvent, though.
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Re: Nylon 618

Postby scantrontb » 2013-Feb-Fri-00-Feb

Yep! That there stuff is one nasty customer... there is lots of evidence that it plays a contributing factor in a large percentage of traffic accidents, and it contaminates almost everything we eat and drink.... there was even a bill introduced (to the US Congress, if i recall correctly) a few years ago the tried to BAN the stuff... it supposedly even got the required quantity of signatures to get it on the ballot!!
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Re: Nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Feb-Tue-16-Feb

Well I ordered 3lbs of the Talman Nylon 618, so we'll see.
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Does anyone have a perfect bed for nylon?

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Feb-Tue-17-Feb

My Printrbot Plus kit arrived with a spool of ABS. My first print was "Mr. Jaws" using ABS and it came out physically perfect, but the chemical smell was way too much.

I was concerned about the physical properties and longevity of PLA, so I decided to try Nylon. According to the Taulman3d web site, the 618 nylon has very low fumes. I have found this to be true. It's not completely odorless, but it's way, way less offensive than ABS.

Of course, mechanically, nylon has very desirable properties. It's strong but resilient (not brittle); it resists attack by almost any chemical you can name, and it is great if you want low-friction moving parts.

However, for 3D printing, there is one major, major problem: it's about as sticky as Teflon, even in the molten state. So finding a suitable bed for printing is a challenge. The Taulman web site recommends poplar wood or Garolite. The latter is a composite board made from wood fibers, somewhat like Masonite. I have not tried the poplar wood because I wanted to have a bed that's not subject to warping from temperature and humidity changes. Taulman also said that "cellulosic fibers" should work.

So here's what I've tried so far with utter and complete failure, no adhesion:

• Kraft paper, glued to glass;
• Kraft paper packing tape, the type which uses water-activated adhesive and thus has no "release" coating on top;
• Kapton tape, both plain and sanded with 330 grit sandpaper;
• Glass plus two different kinds of floor wax;
• Glass plus Aqua Net hair spray;
• Glass plus sugar syrup (the syrup beaded up on the glass; I could see it was hopeless from the start;
• Glass plus Elmer's glue;
• Blue painter's tape;
• Clear packing tape (I was hoping for a "welded" bond like the Garolite -- see below);
• Vinyl electrician's tape (this melts when the printhead touches it, but rejects bonding to the nylon).


A few experiments have yielded slightly improved results, but each needs an individual explanation for the good and the bad:

1) Garolite. When I tried this, I had the bed heated, and I had the Z clearance set pretty low because all of my previous experience said this was necessary. Well, in spite of the fact that Garolite has a glossy surface, it really bonded to the nylon. In fact it welded to the nylon. :-( I used a hammer and chisel and still did not get all of the nylon off the Garolite. The part, of course, was trashed. The Taulman web site says the adhesion is so good you may want to tape off part of your part, and that's true. But how can I know beforehand exactly where to put the tape? Maybe it could work with the bed at room temperature and the nylon thread just barely touching down in a molten state. One piece of Garolite big enough for one bed is about $30 from McMaster-Carr.

2) Masonite. On my first try there was no adhesion, but I learned that "Tempered Masonite" has a coating of cured linseed oil, so I sanded the smooth shiny surface until it became dull. Then when I did a print, the part adhered very well. There was no lifting at the corners. Yet, I could still remove the part without breaking it. However, the part came away with Masonite fibers embedded in the bottom, which is kinda ugly. Also, that means the after a few parts have been made the Masonite will have a depression where you have been pulling material away. The good news is that Masonite is readily available from the big-box stores and only costs $5.00 for a piece big enough to make six beds. A downside is that it is definitely subject to warping when exposed to heat and variations in humidity. I did my first experiment with a heated bed, and another with the bed at a chilly (garage) temperature; heated works better.

3) Cloth. In my first attempt with cloth, I glued bed-sheet material down to glass with Elmer's glue. The nylon stuck to it fairly well, but not quite good enough. In my second attempt, I glued a thicker and coarser denim material down to glass with epoxy glue. The nylon seemed to stick to it with the right amount of hold, and only a little blue denim fibers came away with the part. However, I was using the bed heated to 85C and only later found out that the epoxy is not rated to work above 80C. So when I pulled my first small part off the denim, it lifted a part of the denim. Later when I tried a larger part, I could see the denim deflecting in that area - so it was not a stable bed. To be continued...

I'd love to hear about others' experience - or solutions - with nylon.
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Re: Does anyone have a perfect bed for nylon?

Postby plexus » 2013-Feb-Tue-17-Feb

I have some Talman 618 on-route. oh boy. the last thing I wanted to dick around with was printing surfaces after having been through that with ABS initially.

I was going to try some thin but flat wood veneer. something cheap.
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Re: Does anyone have a perfect bed for nylon?

Postby Lemniscate » 2013-Feb-Tue-18-Feb

Here is someone reporting good results with cardboard:

galaxyman7 wrote:<snip>

@eddiema
well I print on cardboard because it is stiff, so it can't warp with the nylon parts, and because the nylon sticks like glue to it. I printed on blue tape before, but that kept peeling due to the high bed temp requirements, and making the parts warp. The nylon did stick very well to it though. Printing small gears shouldn't have a problem printing on blue tape since there is much less warp.

<snip>



Thread: http://www.printrbottalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10207

See also the video in that thread, as well as its description.
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Re: Does anyone have a perfect bed for nylon?

Postby Dave A » 2013-Feb-Wed-02-Feb

Just an idea,but could a thin sheet of hpl/trespa be of any service? It's also made of fibers, stiff and, if you use a thin enough sheet, you can bent it of the printed piece.I haven't got in to experimenting with nylon yet but I got some spools of 3 mm nylon weed-trimmer nylon yesterday. I'm a bit cautious though. The PB I bought is for my work and I rather not clog up any residue in the hot end. Especially while I'm not completely sure there are no fibers in my nylon. I rather wait until I've build my own printer. But I keep on reading to be informed about any other stuff that is printable. Nylon looks to me as a very nice material.
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Re: Does anyone have a perfect bed for nylon?

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Feb-Wed-18-Feb

Re "hpl" (high-pressure laminate): Masonite is a very old brand of high-pressure formed wood product. I think Noah used it for paneling on the ark. And Garolite is also a different high-pressure formed wood product (I guess neither one is technically a "laminate" because they don't have layers). So you are on the right track. If you find one that works well (and doesn't warp) please come back and leave a note in this forum!

I think that there are three broad categories of making things attach to each other:

1) Chemical adhesion (this is actually a very complex subject, but it involves two similar or dissimilar products that adhere to each other on a molecular / atomic level while the two products still remain distinct). Epoxy or super-glue, adhesive tape, and so on are examples. (Unfortunately nylon is almost immune to this mode)

2) Mechanical adhesion, where two objects are attached to each other by mechanical anchoring. Velcro would be an example. This is what I get when I use sanded Masonite: the nylon literally penetrates into the fibers and wraps around them, creating a mechanical bond. When I pull the part off the Masonite, it brings fibers with it. I need to try cardboard, but the cardboard needs to be a fairly porous or coarse type (for nylon penetration), and it also needs to be stiff enough and strong enough to resist deformation by the nylon part. Cloth is another example: maybe canvas or denim will work if it's glued down to a flat surface and operated at a temperature where the glue doesn't soften. A nice feature of cloth is that very little of the cloth gets pulled away with the nylon part.

3) Welding, where two or more materials are melted locally and become one object when they re-solidify. We typically think of welding in terms of metal, but the same concept is used with plastic. I'm convinced that the mode of adhesion for Garolite is welding. Its surface is too glossy for mechanical adhesion, and the bond that it formed is too strong to be attributed to chemical adhesion.

By the way, I'd be very cautious about using nylon filament that was not produced or specified specifically for 3D printing. The cost of good stuff is really not that different than ABS or PLA. And I'm coming at this from a perspective where I was spending from $100 to $300 to buy parts fabricated by contract houses. My parts only weighed ounces, so when I make them myself I'm only using a dollar or two worth of material. So from that background, good quality filament that is consistent and works well is a fantastic bargain.
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Re: Does anyone have a perfect bed for nylon?

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Feb-Fri-16-Feb

PROBLEM SOLVED :D
I'm doing my fifth print right now on canvas. I have to say I am pretty happy with it. The bottom of the parts is almost perfectly clean, and it has the texture of the canvas.

This canvas is a heavy, thick, and relatively coarse cloth. It's not been treated with any waterproofing; it's just "raw" cotton cloth.
Canvas is cheap: one yard of 48" wide material cost me $7, which comes out to under 40 cents per 9" X 9" square.
I glued it down to a 9" X 9" glass square. I used two-part epoxy cement. It needs a lot of cement, because you want to have some of it absorbed into the bottom of the canvas. I don't know how many prints I'll get out of one canvas bed, but with the cloth and glass both being quite cheap, I don't think this is a big problem.

It's nice not to have any fumes or chemicals involved. No ABS juice, no ABS fumes. Also, no expensive Kapton tape...

I'm running the bed at room temperature. That's also nice, because there's no waiting for warm-up or cool-down, and you don't have to worry about burning yourself if you need to reach in with a pair of pliers and pull off a drooping thread of filament.

How to make it work? It's really critical to get the first layer put down right. It's got to mechanically grab the canvas. I adjust the z zero point so it has a heavy drag on a piece of paper. The bed has to be flat. I've been using a +15 degree C temperature offset for the first layer compared to all the other layers, to help the first layer to penetrate the canvas.

Also, although this may not be necessary, I've added a little 1/4" diameter pad, 1/16" thick, to the ends of thin walls where they touch the canvas, to help spread out the force a little.
PadsOnPart.jpg

When it comes time to remove the part, I gently get under it with a chisel, and once I've got it started it pulls up with a very reasonable force.
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Injection molded extruder gears
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Re: Does anyone have a perfect bed for nylon?

Postby halley » 2013-Feb-Fri-19-Feb

I've been reading your quest for a nylon bed closely. I'm very interested in printing with Taulman 618 once I have gotten a bit better with the accuracy of my machine on PLA. Canvas on glass sounds great: economical and robust.
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Re: Does anyone have a perfect bed for nylon?

Postby plexus » 2013-Feb-Sat-16-Feb

However keep in mind that the nylon 618 works out, after shipping and tax to $62/kg in canada. I buy ABS and PLA for $27/kg. but its better than LAYWOO-D3 which nets out to $100/kg.
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Re: Does anyone have a perfect bed for nylon?

Postby plexus » 2013-Feb-Sat-13-Feb

So after trying a bunch of different surfaces, but not bakelite or canvas, i found some 1/8" plywood with a nice fir veneer on it that seems to work ok. its not great though. i will have to try some canvas and bakelite.
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Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Feb-Sat-13-Feb

My biggest problem is ooze. when i print I get massive amounts of ooze that causes strings across blank areas in my prints. it takes a lot of work to clean them. any way to eliminate this ooze? i do use retraction but perhaps not enough? how do your prints turn out with nylon 618?
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Feb-Sat-14-Feb

Yup. If you just position the hot head above the bed and let it sit for a while, nylon continues to ooze out for a long time, regardless of retraction. (Taulman just says use more retraction.)

I was wondering if I put a rubber gasket of some sort at the top of the Ubis, maybe I could form a "seal" around the entering filament and get some serious suction for a real retraction to happen.

In the new on-line magazine with a review of slicer programs, it mentioned one program that "wipes" the printhead before moving to another location (I forget the name of the program right now).

As to the very thin threads, remember that nylon was the first substitute for silk in making women's hose. It loves to form thin threads!

Still, I like it. It's very strong and has very little smell when melted - characteristics that are good for what I want to do.

EDIT: The online magazine is ReprapMagazine.com. The program that includes a "wipe" is KISSlicer.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Feb-Tue-17-Feb

I found a pretty good solution, and it makes sense when you think about it...

It seems the extruder continues to ooze nylon no matter how much you retract. So, to minimize the ooze problem, minimize the time allowed for oozing.
What I have done is set the retraction distance to zero (and of course the z-lift to zero). This means no wasted time sitting in place and oozing while executing useless commands to retract or raise the bridge. Then I specified an extremely high speed for motion when no extrusion is taking place: 500mm/sec - although I'm sure it doesn't actually do that.

It took me 13 tries with a tiny test part to get this worked out. Of course, since the test part is very small, there was a problem with sagging. This improved when I made the print speed slower (and it also improved when I blew across the part while it was being built - so I'm in the process of ordering a fan!).

Here are two pictures of a print of the wicked small cylinder part from thingiverse. I have done absolutely no clean-up to it. It's far from carrying the detail in the original, but that's partly because I'm using a 0.4mm nozzle & 0.25mm layer height, and partly due to my Slic3r settings (Slic3r didn't even create some of the smallest cylinders). I will say that I tried KISSlicer, and I liked the fact that it would "wipe" the nozzle by back-tracking over an existing path before executing the high-speed move to another location; but in general I'm more comfortable with Slic3r.

DSC03062.JPG

ObliqueViewOfCylinderTest.jpg
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Feb-Tue-17-Feb

Those are excellent results and your process makes a lot of sense. we often think of retraction as a (partial) solution to ooze but i think you are right in your approach because, well, your results speak for themselves.

i am going to try this with the nautilus gear because that turned into quite a mess.

I agree with you too about Slic3r - although its a good slicer and the one I choose to use, I find myself questioning some of the print moves it makes. take the nautilus gear for example: it prints the teeth by going back and forth from one side to the other, printing the teeth. while this might make sense when using ABS and maybe PLA it doesn't work very well at all for nylon and LAYWOO-D3. the back and forth just spreads more material webs over the whole piece.

I with that Slic3r would provide more detailed customization of print moves so that we can control this kind of thing. not all of us are printing in ABS. with that in mind I am hunting for a better slicer because I don't think these features are going to make themselves in Slic3r anytime soon.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Feb-Tue-22-Feb

So I was thinking, canvas is basically cotton. i dont have canvas but i have some old cotton tshirts. some white. so i took one and expoxied it to an aluminum plate i can clamp to my aluminum hot bed (which resulted in me realizing i can do this and make easy change print pallets!!)... anyway. i am actually printing on it. an old tshirt. pretty funny. i dont think the epoxy will stand up to the heat though. i find the nylon works better on a heated bed.

so how did you make your canvas bed? how is it working out? are you running it hot?

oh and the KISSlicer gcode for the nautilus gear is printing really nice on the tshirt.

ps. i merged the two open topics on nylon 618.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Feb-Wed-09-Feb

Yes, my first cloth bed was a piece of an old bed sheet, held down with Elmer's glue. The nice thing about it is that it's removable. But the bedsheet was so thin that the glue seeped up to the surface. That's why I went with canvas, to get a cloth thick enough that it could be glued on one side and yet remain glue-free on the other side.

I used epoxy, which as you point out has a temperature limitation. So I've been printing at room temperature. It works, but I really have to mash the first layer down hard to get a good enough grip. Even then, I have to avoid the ends of very thin walls or very acute angles because they just don't get enough anchoring to the bed. In my case, I've been able to put a little "button" on the bed which spreads out the force and keeps the walls anchored.

But I think your suggestion of heat is a good one. Even moderate heat, like 60C might make a difference. (Phooey, now I have to worry about that pesky connector on the printrboard, or get a relay...)

Does KISSlicer have an option to lay down a skirt before it starts printing the part? I didn't see it, but maybe it's there under another name. I like the skirt because it means before I start a print I can have the printhead up to temperature and not oozing because it's hot zone is empty; the printing of the skirt fills the hot zone and then the part gets printed without goop stuck to the side of the printhead.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Mar-Wed-02-Mar

My latest nylon exploits. canvas on aluminum bed pallet and a decent print at 300µm layers. prints just peel off the canvas easily.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Mar-Wed-12-Mar

I found an easy way to clean up those pesky threads. Use a heat gun. The threads will melt and then surface tension will pull them back into the body of the part. In fact, the heat gun also slightly smooths the surface of the part.
I have not been able to reproduce the kind of surface that people get with ABS in acetone vapor, but the heat gun definitely helps.
They are available in hobby stores and Wal-Mart. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Darice-Multi-Purpose-Heat-Tool-320-Watt/12460908?findingMethod=rr
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
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E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Mar-Wed-12-Mar

funny you should mention that. i used a lighter torch to fuse the outer surface layers together a la acetone. it worked pretty well. heat gun is a good idea just might take a little longer but with less direct flame issue.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-Apr-Sat-16-Apr

Anyone know of a good glue for Nylon 618? ABS is easy with Acetone but Nylon 618 seems very resistant to most chemicals and has a very slick surface. I'm looking for something good for structural strength without distortion.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby halley » 2013-Apr-Mon-12-Apr

drawcut wrote:Anyone know of a good glue for Nylon 618? ABS is easy with Acetone but Nylon 618 seems very resistant to most chemicals and has a very slick surface. I'm looking for something good for structural strength without distortion.


My first guess is "hm, does epoxy stick to nylon?"

Here's one product that specifically mentions nylon, http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/epxy_p ... Bonder.htm but I'd just try whatever quick epoxy I had lying around first. What, you don't have two part epoxy lying around!? Go to the hardware store and get some. Epoxy is to superglue, as superglue is to craft glue.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Apr-Mon-15-Apr

halley wrote:What, you don't have two part epoxy lying around!?

Curb your tongue, knave. Anybody here that doesn't have any epoxy either just ran out, or wouldn't admit it :lol:

I recommend the little two tube thingies for casual use, get two or three. Even though they cost a bit more you don't loose as much if you put the cap on backward and it hardens in a couple days. Not that I know how that would happen...

I've used the plastic mender version, although not on nylon. It works well to fix stuff at home.

Kirk

Edit: fix previous sloppy editing. :oops: Sorry drawcut.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-Apr-Mon-17-Apr

Mooselake wrote:
halley wrote:
drawcut wrote:What, you don't have two part epoxy lying around!?

Curb your tonge, knave. Anybody here that doesn't have any epoxy either just ran out, or wouldn't admit it :lol:

I recommend the little two tube thingies for casual use, get two or three. Even though they cost a bit more you don't loose as much if you put the cap on backward and it hardens in a couple days. Not that I know how that would happen...

I've used the plastic mender version, although not on nylon. It works well to fix stuff at home.

Kirk


Hey now! I didn't write that, Halley did. :P For the record, of course I have 2 part epoxy around. Just looking for anybody with direct experience gluing the Nylon 618.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Apr-Mon-22-Apr

drawcut wrote: For the record, of course I have 2 part epoxy around. Just looking for anybody with direct experience gluing the Nylon 618.


epoxy wont work. it wont bond to nylon. there isnt much that will work, nothing ive been able to find.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Apr-Tue-00-Apr

Ehow says a hot glue gun, fwiw.

Kirk
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Apr-Tue-00-Apr

Mooselake wrote:Ehow says a hot glue gun, fwiw.

Kirk


what whinnie the pooh character is that???
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Apr-Tue-00-Apr

plexus wrote:
Mooselake wrote:Ehow says a hot glue gun, fwiw.

Kirk


what whinnie the pooh character is that???


Eeyore's vocational ed teacher.

Kirk
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Apr-Tue-07-Apr

A product called Loctite Epoxy Plastic Bonder will work on nylon. It comes in one of those dual-tube dispensers. The joint it creates is probably not as strong as the nylon itself, but you can get reasonable strength from it.

Unlike most epoxies, this one is very smelly. I guess they have a strong solvent included in the formulation.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
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Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-Apr-Tue-11-Apr

ok i got my hands on a sample of 645 but its 1.75mm. from reading some threads on the forum it sounds like i *might* be able to run the 1.75mm through my 3mm extruder. probably have to do it slowly. has anyone tried this? i was looking for some appropriate tubing i could put in the hot end opening to take up the extra radial space but so far no luck.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby holmes4 » 2013-Apr-Tue-12-Apr

Someone else reported success with a plastic soda straw.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-Apr-Tue-18-Apr

Thanks everyone for the glue info. The Loctite stuff is one option, maybe with the mating surfaces roughened up with sandpaper or even in the model itself. Another idea I had was to use a printed nylon rivet to join parts. Only useful with certain parts but it might work well with a modified soldering iron to set the rivet.

Looks like increasing my Y bed dimension is moving up higher on the to do list.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Apr-Tue-19-Apr

plexus wrote:ok i got my hands on a sample of 645 but its 1.75mm. from reading some threads on the forum it sounds like i *might* be able to run the 1.75mm through my 3mm extruder. probably have to do it slowly. has anyone tried this? i was looking for some appropriate tubing i could put in the hot end opening to take up the extra radial space but so far no luck.


When my printer was still on order, I purchased some 1.75mm filament. Not knowing that there could be any problem, I simply put it in the extruder, calibrated the extruder scale factor, and ran it. What I discovered is that if there is any tendency for dribble / ooze (like with nylon), it's worse when you have 1.75mm filament going into a 3mm chamber. Basically, you get a pool of melted plastic at the bottom of the extruder, and "retraction" of the filament does very little to decrease the depth of the puddle. 3mm filament gives you better control.

From reading the forums, I have noticed that people sometimes have problems with the filament buckling on the way into the hot end. I suspect this can be a function of the hot end temperature and the type of plastic being used: if you need to exert too much "push" on the thin filament, it's likely to buckle.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
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Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-Apr-Thu-19-Apr

FWIW, I just noticed this on Taulman's site:

"Nothing bonds to 618. To adhere other parts to 618, they must also be made of 618 and bonded with a heat gun or soldering iron."

and later

"Can I glue my 618 parts together?

The short answer is No. It is similar to trying to glue non-stick Teflon to non-stick Teflon.
We use a 20-40 watt soldering iron for melting part edges to each other."
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drodgers » 2013-Apr-Sat-02-Apr

drawcut wrote:FWIW, I just noticed this on Taulman's site:

"Nothing bonds to 618. To adhere other parts to 618, they must also be made of 618 and bonded with a heat gun or soldering iron."

and later

"Can I glue my 618 parts together?

The short answer is No. It is similar to trying to glue non-stick Teflon to non-stick Teflon.
We use a 20-40 watt soldering iron for melting part edges to each other."


Actually, I found that superglue works perfectly well, especially if you sand the parts slightly to smooth/flatten them and increase the contact surface area.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drodgers » 2013-Apr-Sat-07-Apr

I've just written up my experiences (and slic3r settings) with 618 (including some great results from using RetireeJay's no-retraction solution): http://www.elegantalmosteverywhere.com/ ... nylon.html
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby halley » 2013-Apr-Sat-08-Apr

drodgers wrote:I've just written up my experiences (and slic3r settings) with 618 (including some great results from using RetireeJay's no-retraction solution): http://www.elegantalmosteverywhere.com/ ... nylon.html


Excellent. Short version in case people search years after the website disappears: turn off all retraction and print fast to avoid drool, use a smaller nozzle (0.2mm), and set slicing parameters to avoid crossing perimeters. Superglue seems to work on sanded Taulman 618, contrary to expectations. Unmentioned, but Slicer 0.9.9 also should be better than 0.9.8 as it reduces travel over air in favor of traveling over laid plastic.

Care to share your exact slicer config?
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Sun-16-May

I got some Nylon 618 prints to work today. Definitely a different beast than ABS. But the increased strength and layer bonding make it very interesting to me. And it's so much less brittle than ABS. Doing prints with no heated bed is also a big plus. Sticks great to Garolite LE - too great in some case as others have pointed out. But I'd still like to get Garolite to work better. I think the key might be to back off on how tight the first layer is to the bed. We're used to ABS settings and following that (first layer pushed down very tight on the bed) tends to give parts that need a chisel and hammer to remove - if they come off at all. I tried setting my initial Z height up higher with some success but the Nylon just loves to ooze (definitely use smaller nozzles sizes helps reduce the ooze). I added a small piece of metal shim stock at my home location to 'cap' the hot end and let it heat up without oozing. Another way to approach this is to add some Z offset in Kisslicer so that you can reduce the stick of the first layer. Bed roughness is another parameter that may help here. Using this approach I was able to get a part that had some slight peel up at the edges and it popped off with a scraper and just a quick twist.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Sun-16-May

I've found a few more things in my testing:

Garolite: I've found that this stuff comes in many varieties and costs.

Garolite G-# and FR4: glass based fibers (probably not useful since Nylon sticks to cellulose and not glass).

Garolite LE: Linen based. This is what Taulman recommends - sticks great even with no heated bed, sometimes too great and too difficult to remove. This can be offset in large part by setting the nozzle higher than is typical for ABS. .125" X 12" X 12" sheet $17.05 at McMaster.

Garolite CE: Canvas based. I tested this and got excellent results. Sticks very well with no heated bed. Seems to be as good or at least pretty darn close to LE. Cost is significantly less than LE. .125" X 12" X 12" sheet $11.91 at McMaster.

Garolite XX: Paper based. Sticks very well but maybe a bit less than LE or CE. Main draw back is that it tends to peel of in layers when removing a part. Wasn't too bad and the stuff can be removed from the part with a wire brush and elbow grease. A wire wheel on a dremel makes short work of it. Dust may be nasty so use caution. (CE and LE leave slight amounts of stuff on parts when removed but much less than this. Can be removed in the same way if needed.) Cost is even cheaper. .125" X 12" X 12" sheet $7.30 at McMaster.

Of the three I think CE is the best choice. Give great stick for parts that need it at less cost than LE. Adjust your Z height and extrusion width for the first layer to get the right balance of stick vs release. Kisslicer settings of bed roughness and Z offset are useful here.

I also tried printing on corrugated cardboard which worked surprisingly well considering the stuff is pretty much free. Some issues with keeping things level since clips tend to compress the cardboard and may bend it some. Fairly good stick with no heated bed. parts will peel off a layer of cardboard that can be removed as above.

I have just found some smooth unfinshed hardboard material at my local home center that looks promising. 1/4" X 12" X 24" for < $7.00. I suspect it's less than 1/4" but I haven't measured yet. I'll report more after I test it. Made by Georgia Pacific so it should be widely available in the US at least.

Also tried a dye test. I used liquid Rit dye in a small aluminum pan on the stove. Keep things heated for about 30 mins. Navy blue turned out almost black! No problems getting dye to absorb. Fabric pens and sharpies also will color the nylon fairly well.

I tend to have issues with keeping the hot end primed since the nylon just runs out at temperature. Even with a skirt it can still be difficult to get that first layer consistent, especially on small parts. Slic3r seems to have an advantage here since it allows multi loop skirts where Kisslicer does not. I have been setting my Z height similar to ABS - paper sheet thickness and then adjusting things on the first layer higher with Kisslicer Z offset and bed roughness. I prime as well as I can and then put a sheet of paper under the nozzle at home position to plug it at the start of a print. Kind of a hack but it's the best I have gotten to work. Anybody else have an alternative?
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-May-Sun-17-May

Drawcut, have you tried canvas? just wondering because I use canvas and it works well but i am curious if Garolite would work better so getting a comparison would be useful.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Sun-17-May

I have some canvas but I haven't tried it yet. I'm not thrilled with having to glue it down to a substrate. Seems like a bit of extra work and cost for the canvas + glue + board when there are options that work with just board only.

I'll be giving it a try and reporting what I find.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby fnord » 2013-May-Mon-10-May

I just started playing with nylon yesterday and had good luck with glue stick on glass. The glass still had hair spray on it from before. I just cranked the temp up to 40c and then spread glue stick on it. The first 2 prints failed for reasons other than adhesion and they were almost impossible to get off the glass. The third one completed and once the glass cooled it popped off with a little force.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-May-Mon-10-May

drawcut wrote:I have some canvas but I haven't tried it yet. I'm not thrilled with having to glue it down to a substrate. Seems like a bit of extra work and cost for the canvas + glue + board when there are options that work with just board only.

I'll be giving it a try and reporting what I find.


Just to re-iterate what I did, which was fairly easy but then i had a spare plate laying around... i took one of the aluminum beds i had made, got some thick canvas at the art store and bottle of GOOP. i spread the GOOP liberally all over the plate, making sure to get it right to the edge evenly. i cut a piece of canvas slightly larger and pressed it onto the GOOP on the plate and then turn it upside down and put a bead of GOOP along the edge where the canvas meets the plate. i did this to keep the edge of the canvas firmly attached to the plate. then i pressed it under a table a leg with the canvas down so the plate pressed into it. after it cured, i cut the excess canvas off. Garolite was harder for me to get my hands on cheaply. so i opted for this approach.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-May-Mon-11-May

My canvas bed that was glued down to glass got damaged during an experiment with heat, because the epoxy glue that I used was not rated for 40C.
Now I have prepared two new canvas beds on glass. One with Goop, like Plexus. For the other one, I used a high-temperature glue called Loctite Stik-N-Seal Extreme. It has a very high temperature rating. It was pleasant to use, having a pine odor and the consistency of honey (Goop is thicker and harder to spread).

For both of these, I used a "contact cement" approach: I spread the glue on both the glass and the canvas, waited a couple of minutes for the surfaces to become tacky, then pressed them together by hand. I've let them cure (without pressure) for >72 hours. We'll see what happens next. I'm starting to work with larger parts, and maybe heat will help keep the parts from warping.

I'm encouraged by Drawcut's experiments with different types of Garolite and different settings. I might try the Garolite CE, with a first-layer setting sufficiently high that it doesn't "weld" the part to the bed.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Mon-18-May

I just set up a canvas bed - waiting for it to dry now. But I usually don't do much printing until the weekends. I decided to try using wood glue since canvas is just plant fibers and I'm gluing down to some wood based hardboard. Plus I have plenty around and it's cheap.

RetireeJay: If you still have some Garolite LE around I'd just experiment with that. I think the stick is just about the same LE vs CE - just that CE is cheaper. IIRC I think I was using Bed Roughness .05mm and Z Offset .05mm or .1mm with initial z height set at a paper sheet thickness.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-May-Thu-15-May

I'm getting great results now printing parts using a room-temperature canvas bed that is glued down to glass with Loctite Stick-N-Seal Extreme (which can be used with heat if I ever need it).
By the way, this is canvas from a fabric store. It' very cheap, and it's not coated. I think that canvas from an art store would be an entirely different beast.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2013-May-Thu-16-May

RetireeJay wrote: I think that canvas from an art store would be an entirely different beast.


The art stores here sell plain untreated natural canvas. that's what I am using and it works great with nylon. the store i got it at sells it off a big roll like in a fabric store. i believe its just unbleached natural cotton canvas, its fairly thick and has a fine weave.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Sat-13-May

More testing done today.

Hardboard: some stick but not enough for printing. Still, this stuff may have some uses. It is pretty flat and may make a decent, cheap build material. But it's wood based so probably will soak up humidity and may warp.

Canvas print surface: Worked very well. Had some lifting on corners but not much. Probably be able to improve that with some tweaking. Prints release with moderate force. Overall I'd say this is a close second behind Garolite CE or LE. Using the hardboard (above) as a substrate and wood glue worked very well. The combination is still pretty cheap. But it does have the negatives of: textured surface after printing and added work to glue the canvas down.

I've ordered some Taulman 645 Nylon and a 1.75mm hotend since 645 hasn't become available in 3mm yet. I want to get some parts as strong as possible. Plus I'm interested if the 1.75mm hotend will help the nylon issues at all.

Still fighting the drooling issue. Start up is my biggest problem / annoyance. I'm thinking of just cutting out a section of the print bed at my home position and letting the thing drool away. Problem is the extruder may not fill back up before the print gets done with the skirt and I end up with an inconsistent first layer. Really wish KS had multi lop skirts. :(
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-May-Sat-15-May

My latest fix for pre-print drooling is to raise the z position to +20 or 30mm, and just to let it drool. I'm hoping for a thread to come out, not a balled-up tangle. Then, after I click "Print" and the head starts to move toward the center area of the bed, it's dragging this thread behind it. Just before the head touches down in Z, I grab the thread and pull it away. So the print starts with almost no "baggage," and a full extruder.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
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E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Sat-17-May

That's about what I'm thinking of doing. But how does it have a full extruder if you just let it drool for a while?

And after stabbing myself scraping a print of the Garolite, I'm warming up even more to the canvas! :lol: Note to self, take the extra 10 seconds and take the Garolite off the PB to scrape things off safely!
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-May-Sat-17-May

drawcut wrote:That's about what I'm thinking of doing. But how does it have a full extruder if you just let it drool for a while?

Well, OK... not completely full. But if it is still exuding material when it starts the print, then it won't be too terribly starved. BTW, I almost always use KISSlicer with Raft turned on, and one consequence is that there is some "throw-away" material laid down before the actual part starts to be printed. The raft also helps with keeping the corners from lifting.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
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E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby REPRAP SQUAD » 2013-May-Sun-11-May

do you think that nylon would work well for printing an extruder gears and all. Ive been curious about good uses for nylon and reprap parts.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-May-Sun-12-May

Nylon is very strong, and once you get your settings tuned in it produces parts with good quality in terms of dimensions and surface finish.
I made a part the other day that I discovered that I needed to cut. I used a hacksaw, and I was amazed at how difficult it was to cut the nylon.
If you have your temperatures and everything right, the bond between layers is extremely good, so your product is tough in all three axes.

So, bottom line: It should make excellent gears and mechanical parts for a reprap printer.
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PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Sun-19-May

RetireeJay wrote:My latest fix for pre-print drooling is to raise the z position to +20 or 30mm, and just to let it drool. I'm hoping for a thread to come out, not a balled-up tangle. Then, after I click "Print" and the head starts to move toward the center area of the bed, it's dragging this thread behind it. Just before the head touches down in Z, I grab the thread and pull it away. So the print starts with almost no "baggage," and a full extruder.


Thinking about this some more. Is there a way to prevent the extruder from moving to the home position and waiting for the exact extruder temp before starting? That's where I tend to get problems: with the extruder sitting at home position, waiting for temp and oozing away, building up a nylon blob. If it would just start printing immediately it might help. I see Slic3r has a 'home all axis' in it's default Gcode but I don't see that in Kisslicer even though it behaves the same.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-May-Sun-21-May

Copied from another post, not edited specifically for your question but I think it gives you the answer...

Check your Slic3r configuration, under the tab "Printer Settings." You may have some G-code in there that forces the printer to wait for the hot end and/or heated bed to reach temperature. You can find full documentation on G-code at http://reprap.org/wiki/G-code. In Slic3r configuration, be sure your G-code flavor is RepRap (Marlin/Sprinter)

M104 sets the extruder temperature and does NOT wait
M109 sets the extruder temperature and DOES wait
M116 makes the printer wait for all temperatures (bed and hot end) to reach setpoint.

Check to be sure your Slic3r configuration "Filament Settings" to be sure it is not calling for bed heat (you can safely set the setpoint to zero).

If you have a temperature change, i.e. you print the first layer at a different temp than following layers, be sure you are NOT using M109 and M116.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Mon-17-May

Thanks, that should do it. I found it hiding in the select extruder tab in Kisslicr.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Mon-20-May

Also I see that Taulman 3d now offers Nylon 645 in 3mm size. This just two days after I got tired of waiting and ordered 645 in 1.75mm and a 1.75mm hotend. :o Oh well, I wanted to compare the 1.75 anyway. :lol:
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-May-Mon-20-May

RetireeJay wrote:Copied from another post, not edited specifically for your question but I think it gives you the answer...

Check your Slic3r configuration, under the tab "Printer Settings." You may have some G-code in there that forces the printer to wait for the hot end and/or heated bed to reach temperature. You can find full documentation on G-code at http://reprap.org/wiki/G-code. In Slic3r configuration, be sure your G-code flavor is RepRap (Marlin/Sprinter)

M104 sets the extruder temperature and does NOT wait
M109 sets the extruder temperature and DOES wait
M116 makes the printer wait for all temperatures (bed and hot end) to reach setpoint.

Check to be sure your Slic3r configuration "Filament Settings" to be sure it is not calling for bed heat (you can safely set the setpoint to zero).

If you have a temperature change, i.e. you print the first layer at a different temp than following layers, be sure you are NOT using M109 and M116.


Just wanted to thank you for this tip again. Using it today worked far better than what I was doing before.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-Jun-Sat-20-Jun

I got the Taulman 645 nylon 1.75 mm working now (after some jamming issues). I am liking this stuff better than the 618 in 3mm. I have been able to get very good prints using 5mm retraction instead of the 'just print fast' method. This has worked better for me with less stringing. I'm not positive which change is the reason for this but the suspects are: The 645 chemistry, the change to 1.75mm filament, or maybe that I was able to dry out the 645 more by baking it at 180F for 30 mins. (The 618 I got was in the 'clamshell' container. A quick test of that plastic showed that it was not going to survive the oven.) Going to try to weed through all the variables to see what is behind this.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby rsilvers » 2013-Jun-Fri-11-Jun

I don't think 30 minutes is much. I baked nylon for 20 hours at 180F with a fan and it still had small puffs of steam. I would suggest two overnight bakes.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby MileHigh3DII » 2013-Jul-Tue-16-Jul

drawcut wrote:I got the Taulman 645 nylon 1.75 mm working now (after some jamming issues). I am liking this stuff better than the 618 in 3mm. I have been able to get very good prints using 5mm retraction instead of the 'just print fast' method. This has worked better for me with less stringing. I'm not positive which change is the reason for this but the suspects are: The 645 chemistry, the change to 1.75mm filament, or maybe that I was able to dry out the 645 more by baking it at 180F for 30 mins. (The 618 I got was in the 'clamshell' container. A quick test of that plastic showed that it was not going to survive the oven.) Going to try to weed through all the variables to see what is behind this.


I concur on the 645. 5mm retraction and don't cross perimeters gave me a really nice looking lego brick. The underside doesn't have any stringing, and the top 'nipples' are well formed with no stringing.

As for bed adhesion, I've been going room temp with an artist/kid glue stick on kapton tape. If I get the bed to 100C with just the kapton, that works for ABS. No heat and the glue has given excellent results so far. I get to use one bed. To take the glue off, just use a wet napkin and wipe it off. Use some acetone to really clean in for ABS and heat it up. After a print, just wash the bottom with water and the glue comes off. A little dampness on a finger re-spreads the glue out.

I did have to re-adjust the tension in my feeder arm. Back it way off and then started tightening it until I got the hobbed bolt not to slip. No more pigtailing and it survives feeding and retraction.

Really liking the PA resin, wish it came in colors, I'm not one to dye job things ;)
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-Jul-Tue-20-Jul

Glue stick on Kapton huh? I'll have to try that. Been using Garolite CE mostly. I do like being able to print without heating the bed.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby MileHigh3DII » 2013-Jul-Wed-01-Jul

drawcut wrote:Glue stick on Kapton huh? I'll have to try that. Been using Garolite CE mostly. I do like being able to print without heating the bed.


It's more of a time efficiency (i.e. lazy) thing. I was swapping in and out a glass bed with and with out kapton to switch between ABS and PA. I got tired of re-checking flatness after switches since it seems first layer 'squish' is so important to both ABS and Nylon. I tried the glue stick and kapton and it worked. Now I just have one surface that I can use for both materials. I don't think the kapton is doing anything magical, I think it is the glue stick- which has absolutely no information about what the heck it is and its OLD, so my wife has no idea where she got it. After the print I just use a razor blade (scrapper style) and pick at a corner and it comes off. I'm going to try bigger items, something like a easily swappable x-carriage to make sure it works on bigger things.

Remember to 'wash' the soap off the bottom of the part

I did get some warping with 645 on the Lego '8' block? with the ends being 'shorter' then the pregnant middle, on the bottom. Even with that kinds of bias towards popping a corner, the glue stick held the part down. Do I need to let the part 'crystalize' more from its translucent stage when printed to it more clear stage?
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Re: Does anyone have a perfect bed for nylon?

Postby AlexC » 2013-Aug-Tue-19-Aug

RetireeJay wrote:I'd love to hear about others' experience - or solutions - with nylon.


So i printed Taulman 618 Nylon for the first time this weekend. and i have to say i relay like the stuff, but oh boy does it absorb moisture quickly out of the air. I had ordered two spools and im happy i did Iv found out that i cant leave a spool out for longer than 24 hour before the moisture level in the filament starts mucking with, well everything, from adhesion to surface texture.

First off i had heard others having good results with Garolite LE for adhesion so i went straight for it not even bothering to try anything else, and it works great, just smosh the first layer a bit more than with ABS/PLA and I used 150 grit sandpaper to get it roughed up at first, and now #2 steel wool between prints to re-rough. watch for bubbles in the first solid layers, if there excessive your temp is either to high or your filament has absorbed to much moisture. no bubbles = beautiful perfect prints.

a note on hot bed, i tested both heated and cold,. and i found 0 difference in adhesion, as long as there was also 0 moisture in the filament. so if you can dry it, then run with a cold bed, so that there's plenty of wattage to heat up your hot end to the needed temps.

P8020004_Web.jpg


The thing that seemed to impact print quality the most was how long the spool had been out of the drying bag. at one point about two days into printing nylon the prints started going from iffy to worse and worse by the hour with no explanation, so after one particularly bad print i switched out the spools and changed nothing else and i got this,. the top left print if the dry nylon, the lower right print is the Nylon that had been out for two days,. no other difference,. huge difrence in print quality.

P8040013_Web.jpg


I also noticed that the wetter nylon had allot more dripage,. i think because the water is evaporating inside the hot end and pushing the filament out weather or not the extruder is pushing, no moisture = less evaporation = less expansion = less dripage,. the back print is with wet nylon that had been out for two days, the front shot is with Nylon straight out of the drying bag, no other changes.

P8040016_Web.jpg


I did find that sometimes the print did stick so well i could not get it off by hand alone. in these cases a thin pastry spatula worked great and the addition of the 1/4 inch tabs not only helped with adhesion but they gave a starting point for prying that did not end up damaging the print if i had to work at it..

P8040017_Web.jpg


I may try printing on canvas at a later date, as the only negative side effect of the garolite is dust from sanding gets a little messy if your not careful. however, only dusting the dust off the surface after "roughing" allowing a small % of the dust to stay behind helps the adhesion not be super duper hard to break.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-Aug-Sun-16-Aug

I found a new way to get nylon to stick to the print bed this weekend: Glue Stick + heat. I saw this mentioned for several materials on the RepRap forums so I thought I'd try it. I tested 645 on Al bed at 70C with Staples brand glue stick. I see no reason why 618 won't work as well and higher bed temps should increase hold. ( I had a failure at 60C.) Squash first layer down and it sticks very well but isn't 'welded' on like nylon to Garolite. Elmers and UHU brands were reported to work over at the RepRap forums and they were using it on glass beds.

Unrelated: I have found that my spool of 3mm 645 tends to twist as it on rolls which makes it want to slip sideways out from between the hobbed bolt and the idler bearing. I've made a guide for above the hobbed bolt but it's annoying to have to remember to use it all the time. I'm not sure if even that will be enough on longer prints.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Aug-Sun-17-Aug

Thanks, Drawcut.

I have had some problems with my canvas solution. If I don't get the extruder clearance just right, but have it too low, the nylon gets so completely mashed into the canvas that it can't be removed without damage. I've broken two glass sheets that way. And recently I glued canvas on top of an old piece of Garolite and when there was a low-clearance problem the canvas itself got damaged (not the Garolite).

I'm working on setting up a micrometer and an easily-adjustable optical endstop to eliminate the problem of incorrect clearance, but I'm not there yet. (Not even very close yet).

I've read about the glue, and I have been experimenting with glue on top of Garolite to see if it would act as a "release agent" with a reasonable bond strength. But Elmer's school glue and Elmer's ProBond contractor's glue both have released too easily.

Even though it's pretty flat, my Garolite is not perfectly flat, so I'm definitely interested in trying aluminum. Where did you get yours? I have a Plus, so I'm looking for a piece 8.5" X 8.5"
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby REPRAP SQUAD » 2013-Aug-Sun-18-Aug

Have you tried mixing types of glue. A stronger type with a softer bond like elmers? Im not sure if it woukd work right or seperate. I guess it depends on what chemical elements are involved. Ill have to further investigate with this paste slurry later.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby drawcut » 2013-Aug-Sun-19-Aug

I've been ordering from discountsteel.com. They do custom sizes for reasonable prices, IMO. I've tried a range of Al from cheap to more expensive and I have found no difference as a print bed. Order the cheapest alloy they have. My last order had a fairly large scratch across one side of one piece but it really doesn't hurt printing. Other than that, I've had no issues.

Another thing I've seen good reports on is lemon juice. Mostly reports have been on PLA and ABS but it's next on my list to try for nylon too.

ETA: I've always scuffed up my Al plates with some steel wool before the first use.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby SeeFly » 2013-Aug-Tue-13-Aug

Quote
Even though it's pretty flat, my Garolite is not perfectly flat, so I'm definitely interested in trying aluminum. Where did you get yours? I have a Plus, so I'm looking for a piece 8.5" X 8.5"

you can you print taulman on aluminum? i have the same problem of garolite not being perfectly flat but i could fabricate a nice al bed once in my schools machine shop.

i have been printing on garolite le and if it has enough surface area to need help coming off i let it run the outline first, pause it and put down blue painters tape in the middle. it works better with single pieces than multiples.

sidequestion will the new t-glase print on garolite, painters tape?
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby Mooselake » 2013-Aug-Thu-10-Aug

Did you see Printrbot's new aluminum bed for the Plus, $25 iirc. The extra time you'd save over cutting and drilling it yourself is probably worth the few extra dollars.

I'd order one for my Kickstarter plus, but I'm waiting to see what might happen with the all aluminum pro, my motor and nylon gears are still waiting for installation, and my QU-BD RPM might actually show up in the next couple weeks. Too many open projects...

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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby mothy » 2014-Jan-Fri-15-Jan

I have a Printrbot Jr v1. Trying to print with Taulman Nylon a simple rectangular box with a 2layer wall thickness. I have it set to 245degrees for first layer and 240 for each additional layer. First 2 layers stick great but the walls don't stick to each other very well after about 20-30 layers. My problem is I want to set it to a higher temprature, and i've been upping it 5 degrees with each consecutive try, but as soon as I hit 250 the hot end shuts off and slowly cools down to zero. Is this a safety that is hard coded into the machine?
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2014-Jan-Fri-15-Jan

mothy wrote:as soon as I hit 250 the hot end shuts off and slowly cools down to zero. Is this a safety that is hard coded into the machine?


Yes. The PEEK plastic at the top of the Hot End can't take much higher than that.

I've done a lot of work with nylon. I don't think you should need temperatures above 240. However, if your thermistor is out of calibration for some reason then your indicated temperature might not match the actual temperature.

Also, you might try slowing down the "Max Extrusion Rate" in the Firmware EEPROM settings. I just had to do that today. My Max E Feedrate is now 8.0mm/s. The nylon should be able to extrude at an achievable temperature if you don't try to push the rate too high.

One beauty of the Marlin software is that it automatically figures out whichever axis is the slowest, limiting one and it adjusts all the other speeds accordingly. So even if you told it you wanted to print at 100mm/sec, if the Max Speed setting in the EEPROM would not support that rate, it will simply print at the fastest rate it can. Is that clear?
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby mothy » 2014-Jan-Fri-15-Jan

Here is whats happening to my print with the nylon.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2014-Jan-Fri-16-Jan

Wow, that's sure a lack of layer-to-layer adhesion!

And I'd agree that extruder temperature would be the first thing to question.

However, maybe it's something else. What are you using for layer height? (I'm using 0.25mm layers with a 0.4mm nozzle.) Is your Z calibration correct? Is your Extruder calibration correct? Are you using an Extrusion Multiplier of 1.0? Are you letting Slic3r do default settings for trace width and so on?

BTW, I think that the Taulman 645 nylon has better layer-to-layer (and first-layer to bed) adhesion than the 618.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby mothy » 2014-Jan-Fri-16-Jan

yeah i'm using .3mm layer with a .4mm nozzle. Z calibration is set to 2267.72. Everything else I print in PLA seems to come out great. I just can't get above 250degrees celcius, i can hit 245 fine, but this wasn't enough as soon as it hits 250 its like a safety kicks in and it just starts dropping in temp... Everything is calibrated pretty tight, i've been getting great prints in PLA lately. I am using taulman 618 from a sample pack from makergeeks. I dunno maybe it sat out too long or something?
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2014-Jan-Sat-10-Jan

As I said before, Yes, there is a safety cutoff at 250C; you are not imagining it. :)

I'm starting to wonder if the location of the thermistor is critical. If it's measuring the heater more than the heated tube, then it could be mis-representing the temperature as higher than it should.

The thermistor is held in place simply by being wrapped with Teflon tape. So it's possible that the position of the thermistor gets displaced when you do work on the 'bot, or it's possible that it wasn't exactly in the right place to begin with.

Here's a picture with all the Teflon tape removed. The large white ceramic cylinder contains the Nichrome wire heating element, which is inside the cylinder adjacent to the brass threaded tube. The little glass bead with the white-insulated leads (and the little orange parentheses inside) is the thermistor. My theory is that if the thermistor is touching the ceramic cylinder and not touching the brass tube then it may be reading a higher temperature than it would if it were slightly insulated from the brass tube (by Teflon tape) and intimately touching the brass tube. Maybe even some thermal grease to facilitate contact with the brass tube would be a good idea.
smCeramicHeaterAndThermistor.jpg

It's not too difficult to work on this - but don't disturb the position of the ceramic cylinder because it's easy to break the nichrome wire.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby plexus » 2014-Jan-Sat-13-Jan

One thing I like about the magma hot end (although i havent installed it yet) is they created a cutout in the nozzle for the thermistor! great idea. its not ideal of course because you have to remove the thermistor for each nozzle change. but their heart is in the right place. i agree about Ubis design - not ideal and a bit of a hack. it will get you somewhere but not entirely accurately where you want to be. i believe the E3D hotends place the termistor in the heater block.

I have a pair of E3D hotends coming and I will likely use E3D and not the magma only because there is more support for the former. however the magma looks like a good design too. Look for the magma in the selling classifieds a little later on once I decide which way to go.

Oh and I did raise the hotend temp limit to 375C so I could print at whatever temp I wanted. My first Ubis PEEK got slightly melted and the heat break bent to the side a little. I've replaced it with another Ubis. but the Ubis design won't work reliably for ongoing >250C printing sadly. If you print nylon you might want to consider an all metal design.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby mothy » 2014-Jan-Sat-15-Jan

Here is my hot end. Should I pull the thermistor out and put it closer to thehot end like on yours?
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby mothy » 2014-Jan-Sat-15-Jan

plexus wrote:Oh and I did raise the hotend temp limit to 375C so I could print at whatever temp I wanted. My first Ubis PEEK got slightly melted and the heat break bent to the side a little. I've replaced it with another Ubis. but the Ubis design won't work reliably for ongoing >250C printing sadly. If you print nylon you might want to consider an all metal design.


Can you explain how to raise the hotend temp limit?
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2014-Jan-Sat-15-Jan

mothy wrote:Here is my hot end. Should I pull the thermistor out and put it closer to the hot end like on yours?


Hmm... you have a hot end with a cartridge heater instead of a ceramic heater like mine. I'm not sure exactly what to say, but I suspect that for some reason your thermistor is responding to a local temperature that is higher than the brass threaded tube where the plastic is flowing.

So one solution is to do as Plexus has suggested, and change your temperature limit. After all, it's only a number. When you get your hot end hot enough to give good layer to layer adhesion, then it will actually be at about 230 to 235C, regardless of what the thermistor says.

Unfortunately, changing the temperature limit is not trivial. There are many steps involved in obtaining the source code, making the change, compiling the source code into a binary (hex) object file, and flashing the new code into your Printrboard. Plexus and many others have done it, but I have not attempted it yet. There are threads about this on the forum.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby thawkins » 2014-Jan-Sat-19-Jan

RetireeJay wrote:As I said before, Yes, there is a safety cutoff at 250C; you are not imagining it. :)

I'm starting to wonder if the location of the thermistor is critical. If it's measuring the heater more than the heated tube, then it could be mis-representing the temperature as higher than it should.

The thermistor is held in place simply by being wrapped with Teflon tape. So it's possible that the position of the thermistor gets displaced when you do work on the 'bot, or it's possible that it wasn't exactly in the right place to begin with.

Here's a picture with all the Teflon tape removed. The large white ceramic cylinder contains the Nichrome wire heating element, which is inside the cylinder adjacent to the brass threaded tube. The little glass bead with the white-insulated leads (and the little orange parentheses inside) is the thermistor. My theory is that if the thermistor is touching the ceramic cylinder and not touching the brass tube then it may be reading a higher temperature than it would if it were slightly insulated from the brass tube (by Teflon tape) and intimately touching the brass tube. Maybe even some thermal grease to facilitate contact with the brass tube would be a good idea.
smCeramicHeaterAndThermistor.jpg

It's not too difficult to work on this - but don't disturb the position of the ceramic cylinder because it's easy to break the nichrome wire.


Wow, thats a pretty old hotend

The newer ubis dont use nichrome, they have a cartridge heater inserted into the heater block, i belive it is 30W.

On mine the thermistor is also inside the heaterblock, there is a small 2mm hole with the thermistor inside it, wrapped in ptfe tape.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby DonaldJ » 2014-Jan-Sat-21-Jan

That's the ceramic/nichrome Ubis hotend, which is still sold by PB. Never had any problems until I broke the thermistor changing nozzles. Easy fix.

3mm version available for a couple of more days; after that it's 1.75mm only.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby daewootech » 2014-Feb-Thu-02-Feb

Hmm some interesting stuff here, i have a spool of 618, 645 and a few yards of T-glas, but i never went past the 618 as i couldnt get it to adhere to anything, but i think im going to order up a bit of that Garolite CE as DrawCut mentioned, and maybe try some canvas, i should have a whole bunch of art supplies in my garage from college, there should be a few sheets of canvas down there hopefully.
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2014-Feb-Thu-09-Feb

daewootech wrote:i should have a whole bunch of art supplies in my garage from college, there should be a few sheets of canvas down there hopefully.


I think the canvas used for paintings (art-supply canvas) tends to be "filled" with something. The canvas I used was from a fabric store, just cloth. Based on subsequent experience, even a finer-weave cloth would probably work fine, such as muslin.

But I have also had pretty good luck printing nylon onto glass coated with Glue Stick at 80C (true temperature; equivalent to a setting of 55C on older Printrbots not using the Unified software).
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PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby Bob-StPaul » 2014-Feb-Fri-01-Feb

I've had good luck recently with printing nylon (618) onto glass (cheap double strength from hardware store) with glue stick (elmer's - goes on purple dries clear) and printing at room temp - which is about 68F or less this time of year...
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby daewootech » 2014-Feb-Thu-13-Feb

Bob-StPaul wrote:I've had good luck recently with printing nylon (618) onto glass (cheap double strength from hardware store) with glue stick (elmer's - goes on purple dries clear) and printing at room temp - which is about 68F or less this time of year...

I tried bare glass, no luck, and i tried elmers purple glue before, what a mess, no luck either.
RetireeJay wrote:
daewootech wrote:i should have a whole bunch of art supplies in my garage from college, there should be a few sheets of canvas down there hopefully.


I think the canvas used for paintings (art-supply canvas) tends to be "filled" with something. The canvas I used was from a fabric store, just cloth. Based on subsequent experience, even a finer-weave cloth would probably work fine, such as muslin.

But I have also had pretty good luck printing nylon onto glass coated with Glue Stick at 80C (true temperature; equivalent to a setting of 55C on older Printrbots not using the Unified software).

how did you mount the canvas, did you stretch it, glue it?
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby RetireeJay » 2014-Feb-Thu-15-Feb

I glued it down to glass with a high-performance Loctite glue. I spread the glue as evenly as I could on both the glass and the canvas (very difficult to do because the solvent evaporates so quickly). Then just smoothed the cloth down onto the glass and applied some pressure with a roller. The substrate doesn't have to be glass, it could be anything that's flat.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: Printing with Taulman nylon 618

Postby chicuco » 2015-Dec-Mon-09-Dec

Hi!
first post here.
Iv been wiorking with Nylon Bridge Taulman, and the perfect results for me are:
Extruder 245ºC (using 250ºC with my nwe e3d v6 hotend).
speed 40mm/s
Bed: 70ºC , with a Buildtak surface with PVA glue on it (works several prints, after that, more glue and even the surface with alcohol)
Fan= NO! warps the material
Keep the material ina desecant bag ( i use rice as desecant and works fine), if the material absorbs water from the air, will pop at the extruder and produce artifacts
The printing temperature may vary from one to other nylon from Taulmann , but the first layer adhesion with PVA and Buildtak is perfect.
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