Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

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Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Fri-22-Jun

First off I want to start by saying I will get to the silver lining part eventually, but to start iv got to point out the grey clouds.

I ordered a pre-assembled which claims to arrive calibrated,.. mine was not even remotely calibrated. Yes it had a test square printed on it, but I am highly doubtful that square came from this printer, The bed springs where all loose and flopy, the horizontal poles where nowhere even near parallel to the bed, after leveling the bed I measured the difference and it was a hair more than ¼ an inch off between left & right, and after some confusion on the getting started guide I learned that two out of three stop screws where about as far from accurate as possible for forward left at surface. What perplexes me the most about all this, is the getting started guide does not include leveling/calibration instructions, it doesn’t even provide a link to them it just completely jumps over the subject!!! If I had followed the getting started guide blindly im absolutely sure my first print would have been a blob, So I hunted down instructions for leveling and I was frankly shocked to discover that my bed has a sever ~1.2mm bow in it towards the center making leveling nearly impossible,. and that the threaded rods that spin to raise/lower have slight bends in them (they wobble when they spin)! Simply put I am utterly appalled at build quality and factory “calibration” that I received, and am questioning my decision of pre-assembled because I know if I had assembled I would have taken the time to resolve these issues, and also, what haven’t I noticed yet that is also off and I just don’t know, cause I didn’t build it, and I’m still learning. Serious fail there in my mind set,. I hate to say it, but I actually feel like I lost value having them assemble it for me.

However,. After putting about 4 hours of work into re adjusting this or that and guessing at another duzzen things, bouncing back and forth through the forum and going through the build instructions double checking everything, and yes finding more mistakes along the way to fix,. Completely throwing out the factory calibration and caliper measuring everything down to as accurate as I could,. The only way I could level the unit was to set it to paper height in the center, and then caliper measuring the left and right position to be equal (but much more than a piece of paper, where I got the 1.2mm bowing number) I pressed print not really feeling very confident.

And somehow, things mostly worked,..


(its not letting me link to image files on my first post, some kind of spam warning or somthing, so ill try a second post right after this,.)


In my mind this is a decent first print,.. granted its small, a non-complex print, and I centered it so that the 1.2mm bow would not factor to badly,. But it’s a fairly good first print. I did get some shrinkage towards the bottom, and my bottom layer did not bond well to the second layer towards the outer corners, I assume that’s because of the bow in the print bed, so my plan is to replace the entire print bed with a piece of garolite cut to match. And add spacer washers between the heated bed and the soon to be garolite bed so that the corners of the heated bed aren’t tweaked downwards. That should straighten me out, right? Or just put glass on there and don’t attach to tightly so that it does not transfer the bend?

Also as I work today about 8 prints in, I am noticing I have to constantly adjust the right threaded motor as it seem to keep climbing upwards in comparison to the left. Any idea how to fix that one I looked but didn’t find anything specific to that? The left motor grinds sometimes, and the whole thing feels like its on a slight angle to the left which has me worried,. I don’t know if it’s the slight angle, the wobbly threads, or some other mis set tension elsewhere. oh one of the white belt guides under the bed is on an angle and it grinds some times to, issue, or just part of the oddities of the bot?

Ultimately I expected some work and a learning curve, so im disappointed not pissed,. in some ways im already above the expectations I had for day 2,. But the sub par quality of the pre-assembled really did surprise me,.

To boot, I know you all say that the provided filament is ABS, but that print above was at 190deg and acting like PLA, I looked on the LC kit desc. Doesn’t say what filament comes with it, looked on the shipping invoice,. Doesn’t say,. And I looked at all the bag labeling,. Also does not say,. It does not say anywhere between the website product page to the actual delivered box what this filament is,.. *boggled* for now iv put it to the side and wont/can’t use it till I know for sure what it is, maybe a prntrbot rep will read this and answer? If not ill call on Monday and give someone my minds worth lol,.

Iv switched to sain smart black 1.75 PLA off amazon, seems to be printing well so far, barring the leveng/bowing issues I need to resolve still, no dragging, no sputtering, no steam, caliper says its fairly even between 1.75-1.8mm, I know folks say black can be tricky but it seems to be doing just as well if not a bit better than the mystery filament that came with the kit..

Also disappointed in the power tower but more due to my own decision to get it prior to having spools,. None of the spools I had ordered to arrive before the printer actually fit it,. so it turns out to be somewhat pointless other than to hide the power supply on my desk.

Im still happy and wowed by this technology, but there is a bit of disappointment specifically do with the value of the pre-assembled portion of my order ill not drag through the mudd anymore,. But wanted to be frank this one time about. I am rather optimistic that the tilt and leveling issues can be worked out.

Oh for those that made it through this entire read, I have discovered one gadget that rocks at lifting prints. Ateco Ultra #1305 (will come up on an amazon search for $3.80) it’s a small long and thin stainless pastry spatula I picked up from a restaurant supply shop,.. Best tool I’ve found yet in my pile, though granted only two days of experience, so I may just be partial to the first tool that hasn’t failed yet, and does not seem to damage the tape surface (keep it flat and slightly bent (it’s very thin)).
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Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Fri-22-Jun

The first prints that would not link in the first post.

hu,, n/m it wont let me link to images i have hosted on my website,. keeps saying

"Your post looks too spamy for a new user, please remove off-site URLs."

buggers, fix for that (i am using using the provided img tag)?
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby owens » 2013-Jun-Sat-11-Jun

I can't speak to the specific issues with the preassembled printer because we bought kits, and ours are the smaller machines (Jr and Simple). But I can perhaps offer some help with a couple of things. . .

Regarding the bed warp, ours were both flat out of the box but they're a lot smaller. We did find warp in the Jr's bed after a week or two of printing, which caused prints to fail if they were larger than the warped area. We now run with glass on both printers (we didn't wait for the Simple to warp). I suspect that most people are expecting to run heated beds and glass on the big printers, though that doesn't excuse a warped piece of ply.

Our printers only have single Z motors so we have no experience with keeping them in sync, but we have seen the importance of lubrication. We have used Labelle 102 and Tri-Flow, others like Super Lube, if you're a shooter then CLP or Rem-Oil ought to work well. Other folks like white lithium grease on the all-thread, though that's probably not good for the smooth rods.

As for ABS vs. PLA, if you have acetone handy (or acetone-based nail polish remove) it's an easy thing to see whether it dissolves. I suspect you could tell by the smell if you burned a small piece, too. We have only ever printed PLA and have no desire to try ABS.

We bought the Printrbot spool holder and it works great with their spools, not at all with any of the other spools we've bought. After dealing with them rolling around the table for a while and looking at all kinds of cool printed options we built two copies of this thing: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:14783 Ours are a bit bigger, we used longer pieces of PVC between the fittings to make sure they would hold our larger spools off the table.

That pastry spatula looks very similar to the surplus lab spatula that we use, and would be a lot easier to get. . .

And finally, you can get around the link issue by uploading your image attachments instead, even newbies get to do that ;) I'm not sure how many posts you need to make before you can embed links but I don't think it's very many.
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby rsilvers » 2013-Jun-Sat-12-Jun

I don't think anyone can expect to literally print on the plywood bed. You are supposed to add glass or something more flat to it.
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Sat-13-Jun

Thanks you Owens for the input, i have plans on getting glass, just thought since it was not included, that the printer would be ok to start without it,. guess not. and ill look into those lube options.

I plan on printing in both ABS and PLA, dependent on need for what im building. ill try the burn test on the mystery filament and if it enlightens ill report back on that.

That printer spool-er thingy looks about right, thanks!

trying the upload (didn't notice that last night, thanks), then link option,.. lets see!

Shark4_Web.jpg


Shark9_Web.jpg


Shark7_Web.jpg
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Sat-13-Jun

rsilvers, mine is the LC, comes with heated bed and that thermal tape,. the warp is what i measured on the surface of the heated bed, probably getting transferred from the wood to the bed, I am not printing directly on the birch, though from what iv read nylon does print well on slightly sanded birch, but I am not there yet. iv found the that forward right quarter of my bed i can somewhat level out as long as i don't print anything in the other three quads,. yah gota deal with this warp ASAP, my first few prints stuck well, but now the tape seems to be compromised in some way, thinking finger oil maybe, tried a kitchn cleanser but maybe that had wax in it,. so nothings working out for the moment, ill hunt on the forum for the best solvent to clean the tape/glass unless someone responds here with answer first.

can some one please tell me why kitchn (spelled correctly is a non-english word?)
Your post looks too spamy for a new user, please remove bad words or non-english text. (kitchn)

rsilvers wrote:I don't think anyone can expect to literally print on the plywood bed. You are supposed to add glass or something more flat to it.
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby rsilvers » 2013-Jun-Sat-14-Jun

If you get a garolite le plate (1/8 or 1/4) it should be good for printing ABS or Nylon on.

You can print direct on glass with PLA at 70C heat.
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby Bob-StPaul » 2013-Jun-Sat-18-Jun

I find that especially with the z axis home screw - if I don't really get things tight that it will drift just with the vibration of printing. I find that some of the other bolts also need to be tightened up every few weeks. So perhaps the various set screws being out of place can be attributed to vibration and movement during shipping? I do find I am much more confident about making modifications and adjustments to my printer as a result of having built it... I would have been disappointed as well if I had ordered an assembled and calibrated unit and found it very un calibrated...

That said - much of the calibration is filament dependent (even changing colors can require different settings) and takes place in software not the hardware.

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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Sat-21-Jun

Thanks all i went to the Seattle mini maker fair today and got some additional tips, purchased glass on the way home and wood glue,. for multiple experiments,. however when i tried to put the perfectly flat glass on the heated bed i ran into the issue of not being able to get the glass to sit flat and thus causing wobbling issues,. so i got frustrated and decided to take the entire bed apart to find the problem,.. turns out both the wood platform AND the heated bed are both seriously warped, the wood platform has a really bad twisted bend to it, the the actual heated bed has a bad kitty corner to kitty corner bow in it,. so BOTH items are causing the problem which would explain why my measurements where showing such large issues,. i think its time for me to take it to a call into Printrbot,. :(
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Sat-22-Jun

I took some snapshots to show them just how warped these two parts are, cause frankly there so warped i didn't think they would believe me,..
i think the wood ended up warping the heated bed,. but regardless, this apparently got past there QC. you know they said it would take 3 weeks, it only ended up taking 1 week,. id of rather waited the three weeks and gotten a good one than get a rushed one,.

P6080012.JPG


P6080010.JPG


in the picks i am pressing in the center of the back making both back corners touch,. and for the record, this is a very flat desk.
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Sat-23-Jun

Ticket submitted, hopefully in a day or two ill report replacements on the way.

That shark i printed tells me the rest of the adjustments i had to do where fairly spot on, (though every attempts after it has failed due to adhesion issues, i think partly due to leveling). so i am pretty sure once i get past this ill be in good shape. But for the time being I'm just going to hold off, no point in trying to learn when the machine is not working properly,. :(
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby ei8htohms » 2013-Jun-Sat-23-Jun

The birch bed that came with my GO was quite warped too and frankly the replacement bed they sent me is more warped than I would want to print on. That said, the heated bed warpage is not a problem if you use something stiff on top of it. I'm using a mirror now with good results and the heated bed underneath is pliable enough to work fine with the mirror irrespective of any warpage it may exhibit on its own.

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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Sat-23-Jun

I tried to use a stiff piece of thick glass, but the warp is so bad that the folder clips (4 of them) didn't have the strength to bend things level, so the glass wobbled on a central high point on the heated bed, if i attached it only on one side the other side would be so high that the thumb screws did not have enough travel in them to accommodate.. its a really bad warp.

ei8htohms wrote:The birch bed that came with my GO was quite warped too and frankly the replacement bed they sent me is more warped than I would want to print on. That said, the heated bed warpage is not a problem if you use something stiff on top of it. I'm using a mirror now with good results and the heated bed underneath is pliable enough to work fine with the mirror irrespective of any warpage it may exhibit on its own.

_john
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby ei8htohms » 2013-Jun-Sun-07-Jun

I'm sorry, I meant that the heated PCB alone is not a problem as long as you use something stiff on top of it. Ditch the wood and the PCB is pliable enough to conform to a stiff mirror or thick piece of aluminum. At least mine is.
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Igus DryLin nuts
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Sun-14-Jun

i went through my scrap materials box this morning, unfortunately the only piece of garolite i have is a bit to thin, pretty sure it would sag a bit in the middle from its own weight in this application, so if i ditch the wood ill have to order something,. for now im going to give PB the chance to correct there own mistake. which they should and should be made aware of for QC.

its funny i figured the pcb would not be an issue to, but it was warped in its own unique way, kind of puckering up in the middle where you could see the corners of it where pressed hard into the wood but along the sides the middles bulged up off the wood, where the wood has a bow and a twist to it. so im just not sure maybe that was caused by the wood, maybe not.. ill probably find out here soon enough.

on the left and right sync issue, has anyone tried to put a belt across the top of this thing from threaded rod to threaded rod to keep them in sync?
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby ei8htohms » 2013-Jun-Sun-17-Jun

Probably not a great idea. The threaded rods should not get out of sync if the motors are OK, the current is in the right range, the couplers are secure and the carriage and rods are not binding. Trying to gear them to each other would increase the load on them and possibly just make both of them miss steps at the same time. Missing steps is not any better for both rods than it is for one in my opinion. Best to track down the real problem and sort it I'd think.

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Printrbot GO v.1 - steampunk
Auto bed compensation via endstop wired bed mounts
Thrust bearings and Oldham couplers for the
8mm Igus trapezoidal leadscrews w/
Igus DryLin nuts
PB LCD/encoder
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X and Y motors upgraded to Kysans
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Sun-19-Jun

well,. i dug,. and i found that the left threaded rod bolt is torqued so that its corners dig into the wood, this digging made the wood pucker out when the parts where pressed together, and into the thread. the right side seems to be correct with the Nut flush with the wood. i suspect this is the grinding i am sometimes hearing, and the reason for the uneven movement.

Day one i had to take apart the base, and straighten the wobbly threaded rods, and set the guide rods to a proper right angle.
Day two i had to take apart the bed to discover the key to the warp.
Day three i will now have to take apart the upper carriage to resolve this bolt issue,.
Wonders what he will find on day 4.

am i being to picky or is this a really bad assembly job?

BadBolt.jpg



ei8htohms wrote:Probably not a great idea. The threaded rods should not get out of sync if the motors are OK, the current is in the right range, the couplers are secure and the carriage and rods are not binding. Trying to gear them to each other would increase the load on them and possibly just make both of them miss steps at the same time. Missing steps is not any better for both rods than it is for one in my opinion. Best to track down the real problem and sort it I'd think.

_john
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Tue-19-Jun

Ok, great response from the folks at PB!

I ordered my bot with a 1.75mm filament hot end, they only carry PLA for 1.75, so the included filament i received is PLA, not the usual 3mm ABS. that apparently defines what type of plastic you get starting off, at least for the moment.

All of the other issues have been resolved with some replacement parts on the way and a few other actions taken that i believe are a bit more than fair.

For the record i am very happy with the response from them, they treated this properly, and they are working to set things right. Awesome!

Alex
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby AlexC » 2013-Jun-Sun-13-Jun

There we go, replacement parts arrived and are installed, back to moving forward, Thank you PrintrBot!

AC_SainSmartBlack_001.jpg


AC_SainSmart_BlackPLA.jpg
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby Kabong » 2013-Jun-Wed-22-Jun

rsilvers wrote:I don't think anyone can expect to literally print on the plywood bed. You are supposed to add glass or something more flat to it.


Worked for me (I've since moved on and now print on blue tape rubbed with nail polish remover, but the bare wood did work just fine when I first assembled my simple):

Image

Image
photo (19) by Senior Kabong, on Flickr
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Re: Mixed feelings, but still wowed, First print

Postby mrsamnc » 2013-Jul-Tue-11-Jul

Thanks AlexC for the detailed first-hand experience. I read all of it and was/am glad to see that you've gotten things going for you thus far. It was educational for me to read your experiences to (hopefully) learn when I am at that point. :)
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