1st Print.

Discuss your first ever printrbot print

1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sat-10-Sep

As a newbie, what is wrong with this?
When printing 90° the nozzle drags through first layer.

First print after the printer's return from Bot-Spa at Printrbot.
Followed Cura leveling video before printing. Seemed to go OK.

Also, side note; at other forums I get yelled at for being too wordy.
Please advise one way or the other.

Any help appreciated.

dlw
  • 0

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
dlw
I'm an end stop.
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-Sep-Sat-10-Sep
Reputation: 0

1st Print.

Sponsor

Sponsor
 

Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sat-12-Sep

We like words and pictures here. I've never seen anyone criticized for being too wordy.

Your photo shows a case where the printer is trying to put down more plastic on that first layer than will fit underneath the nozzle's flat area. You might look at this post: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=4528. Anyway, the cause is usually a too-tight clearance between the nozzle and the bed. It's possible that your Extruder calibration is off, or the filament you are using is actually larger than the size you specified in Cura, but the first thing I'd do is adjust the bed clearance. On machines with a probe for bed-leveling that's done in software, not hardware - and since I don't have a probe, I am not confident to tell you exactly which command to use or which way to modify the existing number to get more clearance.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 4921
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 494

Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sat-13-Sep

Only printed 1 layer though. Do not know if this will be enough. Will not know until finished.

Did the Cura leveling software one more time. Still did not get what the guy said I should have.

dlw
  • 0

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
dlw
I'm an end stop.
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-Sep-Sat-10-Sep
Reputation: 0

Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sat-14-Sep

As you can see, no top layer and curling.
To prevent curling, I understand glass and hairspray is needed. Anyone tried this.
Top layer printed once. Need a solid top.

Ideas appreciated.

dlw
  • 0

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
dlw
I'm an end stop.
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-Sep-Sat-10-Sep
Reputation: 0

Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sat-15-Sep

The print curls up from the bed due to insufficient adhesion. Many, many people print on blue tape, so it should be possible for you too. When it comes to adhesion, cleanliness is next to godliness. Before you start a print, clean the printing surface with isopropyl alcohol (and let it dry). This generally gives good enough adhesion.

People on this forum have mostly migrated away from hairspray to using glue stick instead. Elmer's "washable school glue" (goes on purple) gives me more than enough adhesion, and Scotch "Craft Stick" is also good. I'll use Scotch for printing T-Glase because Elmer's sticks too well; for printing Ninja Flex I'll use Elmer's because I need all the stickiness I can get. Hairspray is messy; glue stick is easy to control, and it washes off with plain water when it's time to renew the surface.

Your lack of a top layer is probably due to a setting somewhere in your slicer. In Cura, perhaps the "Fill - Bottom/Top Thickness" needs adjusting; it should be at least equal to your layer thickness, and preferably three or four times your layer thickness.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 4921
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 494

Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sat-17-Sep

OK, let's see if I understand this.
The piece is to be 3mm thick.
If it only lays one layer, that means the layer is X.
That would mean the top and bottom layers should be XXXX.
And, subtract that from the 3mm?
Obviously I do not know the thickness of a layer yet. I will research that.

Thank you, Sir.

dlw
  • 0

dlw
I'm an end stop.
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-Sep-Sat-10-Sep
Reputation: 0

Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sat-17-Sep

The very first item in Cura's basic settings for Quality is layer height. Generally, you specify something between 0.5 to 0.85 of your nozzle diameter. Your nozzle is probably 0.4mm unless you've changed it yourself, so your layer height should be 0.2 to 0.34. Usually, we don't bother trying to make the layer thickness an exact integer divisor of the object's height.

On the other hand, it makes sense to specify the top and bottom fill thickness as an integral multiple of your layer thickness. So, for example, if you set your layer height at 0.25 you would tell the top and bottom "fill" thickness to be 0.5 or 0.75 or 1.0mm (2, 3, or 4 layers). If you specified 1.0mm, then that would mean your object would have 1mm at the bottom, then 1mm of lower-percentage "fill" and then 1mm solid on top. (The "Fill Density" is a percent that you'll get in that intermediate layer. But don't worry, the outer walls will be solid, not low-density.)
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 4921
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 494

Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sat-19-Sep

My last effort for the day did not do well either.
It is saucer shaped. Spins like a top. Oh well, my grandson will enjoy it for a few minutes.
On the second layer on the top above the fill, it came loose and followed the nozzle around.
The table was cleaned with alcohol and allowed to dry.
New blue tape applied. Obviously didn't stick.
Maybe I should get glass and glue sticks. LOL.

Thanks for all you help and advice..
dlw
  • 0

dlw
I'm an end stop.
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-Sep-Sat-10-Sep
Reputation: 0

Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sat-19-Sep

In the first post, it seemed your clearance between the nozzle and the bed was too small. Now, if you're not getting adhesion, perhaps the clearance is too large. Getting the clearance tuned in "just right" is crucial. What you should see if you look very closely at an individual trace is that it's got some "squish." It can't be like a cylinder lying on its side - that's zero squish. But it also can't be so thin that the plastic is squeezing out to the sides of the nozzle. The range between those two extremes is only about 0.2mm. So you need to get the clearance tuned in accurately, ideally with a precision of 0.05mm. This will take some experimentation.

BTW, I've got grandchildren too. :D
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 4921
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 494

Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sun-08-Sep

Is there a way to add the number of layers to the initial path before actually printing.
Mine doesn't seem warmed up enough. It goes almost through the first pass without laying down anything
Then, it is only a whisper of a thread. That is also trued with the first pass of the item itself.
Temp is at 210. Should I increase it?

Also, maybe the paper I use to adjust the nozzle is too thick. I will try thinner.

dlw
  • 0

dlw
I'm an end stop.
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-Sep-Sat-10-Sep
Reputation: 0

Re: 1st Print.

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Sep-Sun-09-Sep

Are you using ABS or PLA? ABS is a bit trickier to print as it contracts as it cools and can warp - just like you're seeing. While we old-timers from the original Printrbot Kickstarter started off with ABS (and without the required print cooling fan) PLA is a better material for beginners.

LIke Jay says tinker with the head to bed distance, along with (if Cura has it as an option) the initial layer thickness. If it isn't an option in Cura (which I only use on rare occasions, hard core slic3r fan) then that at least eliminates one variable. You can print somewhat smaller objects than the one you're using to get the adjustments down, kill it after the first layer or two, and it'll go faster.

No grandkids here, even with three daughters in their late 20s/early thirties...

Kirk
  • 0

Modified KickStarter Classic Plus 7/2012
KS Thingybot Delta Pro 10/31/16
User avatar
Mooselake
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: 2011-Dec-Tue-23-Dec
Location: Moose Swamp, Upper Michigan, USA
Reputation: 171

Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sun-09-Sep

dlw wrote:It goes almost through the first pass without laying down anything
Then, it is only a whisper of a thread.


This could be caused by either of two things: (1) your nozzle to bed clearance is so tight that it can't squeeze anything out, or (2) your hot end is not sufficiently primed. Since we have already talked about clearance, let's look at priming.

Being an engineer and a bit OCD, here's how I make sure my hot end is filled with plastic and ready to print: I manually zero all three axes by using the "home" buttons on the "Pronterface" control panel. If I had a probe, I guess I'd also do the G29 command "manually." Since I do this before every print, I do NOT have any G28 or G29 commands in the G-code header. After zeroing, then I raise the head 20mm above the bed, heat it to operating temperature, and use the Extrude button to extrude 10mm at a time until the flow out of the nozzle is consistent. Then I grab the extruded threads with a pair of pliers (the plastic is hot) and pull it gently a bit to the side while simultaneously clicking the "Print" button.

But the more typical way that people solve the problem of an empty hot end is simply to tell the printer to "print" a throwaway zone before starting the actual print itself. This is done by printing a "skirt." In Cura, you find the Skirt setting in the "Expert" menu. Usually two or three loops of skirt is sufficient. The "skirt" is a trace that surrounds the print, but is not connected to the print. In truth, I also use skirt (belt and suspenders! :o ).

BTW, another setting is "Brim" - which somewhat resembles the skirt but it is connected to the print. It is sometimes useful to help keep the print adhered to the bed (particularly if the print has "pointy" sections that are prone to lifting).

(Noticed Kirk's post... I'm a dedicated Slic3r fan also. I've installed Cura only for the purpose of looking at the user interface to help out people like you; I don't think I've ever actually done a print sliced by Cura.)
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 4921
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 494

Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sun-10-Sep

OCD = Old Codger Demented? Nah, that's not correct.
Attached is what I need in the end. Can this be printed front and back?

What is here is not to specs, but close. "If it ain't right, it's wrong." My friend Will would tell me.
It is also slightly convex, not flat. I have a .2mm nozzle. Maybe that will work better.

Getting better though, thanks to you guys.

dlw

PS: Downloaded Slic3r: more learning to do. Hope the learning curve isn't too steep.
  • 0

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
dlw
I'm an end stop.
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-Sep-Sat-10-Sep
Reputation: 0

Re: 1st Print.

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Sep-Sun-15-Sep

With that big gap between the bed and the print you either need to add support or turn it into two pieces. This is not an easy part to print. What you're doing is called bridging, a fancy name for printing over air. In the Cura bridging options turn on the "Touching Buildplate" option; you might need to switch to advanced (expert, etc) mode to see it. If the only issue you're having is a bit of convexity (or concavity, depending on your viewpoint) you're doing very well for a beginner.

The downside of support is that you'll need to remove it, and possibly will need to sand (or otherwise physically abrade) the little nubs left behind.

Using a 0.2mm nozzle will not help, it'll cause an exponential increase in print time (think 2x2x2), and will probably make the bridging problem worse. Tiny nozzles is an advanced user technique. For entertainment search the forum for tiny tree frogs, where you'll see Plexus won the award for the tiniest frog.

Old Codger Demented? So that's what I have; if you name it you can use it as an excuse and get away with anything :)

KIrk
  • 0

Modified KickStarter Classic Plus 7/2012
KS Thingybot Delta Pro 10/31/16
User avatar
Mooselake
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: 2011-Dec-Tue-23-Dec
Location: Moose Swamp, Upper Michigan, USA
Reputation: 171

Re: 1st Print.

Postby frankv » 2016-Sep-Sun-16-Sep

If it was me, I'd make that in two parts... the central axle part, and a separate disc with a hole through it. If the disc is to be driven via the centre axle, make the hole square (or triangular or hexagonal or whatever) with a corresponding square (or whatever) section on the axle. Make the axle part about 0.2mm smaller than the hole.
  • 1

frankv
First blob a success!
 
Posts: 519
Joined: 2015-Jan-Thu-12-Jan
Reputation: 18

Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sun-18-Sep

Just to clarify - "bridging" can be done, but it means you are creating a real bridge between two supports. The bottom of the bridge has to be perfectly horizontal (i.e. all on one layer). The slicer will use a special pattern to create the bridge, and typically also may modify things like speed, extrusion percentage, fan speed, and even nozzle temperature.

The part you showed in your drawing is not "bridged" at all. You can't print something cantilevered out in thin air without "support." Support is a grid of thin walls that holds the cantilevered part from dropping down. It's an option you can turn on in your slicer; you don't have to create the pattern yourself.

You can print parts that grow larger, or are tilted as they rise away from the bed, but there is a limit to how steep the slope can be. Conservatively, Slic3r defaults to 45 degrees, but in fact you can go steeper; the slope depends in part on your layer width vs layer height.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 4921
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 494

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sun-21-Sep

This is where I'm headed. None of the parts are finals. I need to find out what my Printrbot Plus Metal can do.
The gear teeth are what I bought the .2mm for. The long extension is no where near correct.
The side with only 2 gears is wrong. The gears will be sprockets connected by a chain.
Still need to lean how to make sprockets. Will search YouTube.

Thanks again fellows.
dlw

Goodnight.
  • 0

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
dlw
I'm an end stop.
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-Sep-Sat-10-Sep
Reputation: 0

Re: 1st Print.

Postby frankv » 2016-Sep-Sun-23-Sep

Yowza!

That's ambitious for a first print!

Some design tips...

Avoid overhangs. If you can't avoid them, try for a 45-60+ degree slope, the steeper the better.

Allow .2-.5mm tolerance when fitting parts together. That's especially true for moving parts.

Circles are always bigger *and* smaller than they ought to be... they're drawn as many straight lines which on average are close to a circular shape.
  • 0

frankv
First blob a success!
 
Posts: 519
Joined: 2015-Jan-Thu-12-Jan
Reputation: 18

Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Mon-06-Sep

frankv wrote:Yowza!

That's ambitious for a first print!

I'll say!!

All of your gears can be printed fairly easily. Any gear or shaft that has a larger diameter portion and a smaller diameter portion should be printed with the larger diameter portion on the bed; by doing it that way you don't need to worry about the slope where you transition to the smaller diameter.

Same goes for the large disk: eliminate the projections on one side of it so that you can print the disk lying flat on the bed; projections can come up on top of the disk and be printed with no problem. Then print and assemble the bottom projections to the disk separately. That takes care of everything except the square shaft with the collar. Do you really need that little collar? If you can eliminate it, then it will be an easy print. The very tall shaft with a very small diameter will present a challenge, because when you are printing objects like that the layers keep adding up so fast that the next layer goes on before the previous layer (or two or three) have had a chance to solidify. This gets messy. Print at the lowest temperature you can, with the highest fan setting, and if that still creates an uneven, messy print then print two or three of them all at the same time. This gives the top layer on each copy time to cool before the nozzle comes back to it to lay down the next layer. Due to the small footprint on the bed, this kind of print really needs good adhesion - and you may want to use a large "brim" to hold it down; you trim the brim off after the print is done.

Another thing you need to consider is tolerances. Are any of parts in this assembly supposed to be "press fit" or do any of them require a very precise, smooth fit that allows rotation but without "slop"? If you need those kind of tolerances, be prepared to make many copies with very tiny adjustments to the dimensions to get what you need.

There are many posts about printing round holes (which always print smaller than designed, for reasons you can see in the other posts; it's not just geometry), but the bottom line is that NOBODY - not even the guys who sell $100k+ printers - can guarantee an exact inside diameter of a hole without doing a lot of experimenting for the PARTICULAR part you're making, with the exact same spool of filament, the exact hot end, the exact nozzle, the exact speed of printing, the exact fan speed, the exact fan shroud, the same ambient humidity, the same phase of the moon, and so on. If you don't have time to run lots of experiments, plan on drilling (or reaming) the hole out to the exact diameter you need.

You might want to practice with some simpler prints like a calibration cube before you tackle this thing.

By the way, Mooselake has some software that generates the correct shape for involute gear teeth, if you need any suggestions or help in that quarter. Perhaps his software also can do sprockets.
  • 0

Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3
User avatar
RetireeJay
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 4921
Joined: 2013-Jan-Wed-13-Jan
Location: Greenville, SC
Reputation: 494

Re: 1st Print.

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Sep-Mon-08-Sep

Yes, it can do chain sprockets along with timing gear pulleys along with more types of gears than you knew existed.

I use Gearotic Thoughts (an update to Gearotic Motion). There's a demo, and I can create some gears for you with my licensed copy. The demo just has limited output, the simulator might be a good way to model what you want while learning a bit about gear design

Kirk
  • 0

Modified KickStarter Classic Plus 7/2012
KS Thingybot Delta Pro 10/31/16
User avatar
Mooselake
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: 2011-Dec-Tue-23-Dec
Location: Moose Swamp, Upper Michigan, USA
Reputation: 171

Re: 1st Print.

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Sep-Mon-08-Sep

I know printing in the with only one end attached is really cantilevering, but bridging is another of those 3D printing terms...

Like RJ said, start with some simple parts, maybe downloaded from thingiverse.com or on of the usual suspects, and learn what your printer can and can't do along with learning how to make it print better. I used to print the same smaller object over and over while changing slicer options one at a time to see what happened. However I am also a bit (of an) OCD.

Kirk

Autocorrect was working overtime on this, hope I caught them all
  • 0

Modified KickStarter Classic Plus 7/2012
KS Thingybot Delta Pro 10/31/16
User avatar
Mooselake
My next printer is...
 
Posts: 3575
Joined: 2011-Dec-Tue-23-Dec
Location: Moose Swamp, Upper Michigan, USA
Reputation: 171

Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Mon-09-Sep

Thanks guys. I have work to do.
And, forget all those names I called you.
Didn't really mean em anyway.

dlw

PS: I am truly OCD.
  • 0

dlw
I'm an end stop.
 
Posts: 52
Joined: 2016-Sep-Sat-10-Sep
Reputation: 0


Return to My first blob

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest