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Printrbot Talk Forum • View topic - 1st Print.

1st Print.

Discuss your first ever printrbot print

1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sat-10-Sep

As a newbie, what is wrong with this?
When printing 90° the nozzle drags through first layer.

First print after the printer's return from Bot-Spa at Printrbot.
Followed Cura leveling video before printing. Seemed to go OK.

Also, side note; at other forums I get yelled at for being too wordy.
Please advise one way or the other.

Any help appreciated.

dlw
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sat-12-Sep

We like words and pictures here. I've never seen anyone criticized for being too wordy.

Your photo shows a case where the printer is trying to put down more plastic on that first layer than will fit underneath the nozzle's flat area. You might look at this post: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=4528. Anyway, the cause is usually a too-tight clearance between the nozzle and the bed. It's possible that your Extruder calibration is off, or the filament you are using is actually larger than the size you specified in Cura, but the first thing I'd do is adjust the bed clearance. On machines with a probe for bed-leveling that's done in software, not hardware - and since I don't have a probe, I am not confident to tell you exactly which command to use or which way to modify the existing number to get more clearance.
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sat-13-Sep

Only printed 1 layer though. Do not know if this will be enough. Will not know until finished.

Did the Cura leveling software one more time. Still did not get what the guy said I should have.

dlw
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sat-14-Sep

As you can see, no top layer and curling.
To prevent curling, I understand glass and hairspray is needed. Anyone tried this.
Top layer printed once. Need a solid top.

Ideas appreciated.

dlw
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sat-15-Sep

The print curls up from the bed due to insufficient adhesion. Many, many people print on blue tape, so it should be possible for you too. When it comes to adhesion, cleanliness is next to godliness. Before you start a print, clean the printing surface with isopropyl alcohol (and let it dry). This generally gives good enough adhesion.

People on this forum have mostly migrated away from hairspray to using glue stick instead. Elmer's "washable school glue" (goes on purple) gives me more than enough adhesion, and Scotch "Craft Stick" is also good. I'll use Scotch for printing T-Glase because Elmer's sticks too well; for printing Ninja Flex I'll use Elmer's because I need all the stickiness I can get. Hairspray is messy; glue stick is easy to control, and it washes off with plain water when it's time to renew the surface.

Your lack of a top layer is probably due to a setting somewhere in your slicer. In Cura, perhaps the "Fill - Bottom/Top Thickness" needs adjusting; it should be at least equal to your layer thickness, and preferably three or four times your layer thickness.
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PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sat-17-Sep

OK, let's see if I understand this.
The piece is to be 3mm thick.
If it only lays one layer, that means the layer is X.
That would mean the top and bottom layers should be XXXX.
And, subtract that from the 3mm?
Obviously I do not know the thickness of a layer yet. I will research that.

Thank you, Sir.

dlw
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sat-17-Sep

The very first item in Cura's basic settings for Quality is layer height. Generally, you specify something between 0.5 to 0.85 of your nozzle diameter. Your nozzle is probably 0.4mm unless you've changed it yourself, so your layer height should be 0.2 to 0.34. Usually, we don't bother trying to make the layer thickness an exact integer divisor of the object's height.

On the other hand, it makes sense to specify the top and bottom fill thickness as an integral multiple of your layer thickness. So, for example, if you set your layer height at 0.25 you would tell the top and bottom "fill" thickness to be 0.5 or 0.75 or 1.0mm (2, 3, or 4 layers). If you specified 1.0mm, then that would mean your object would have 1mm at the bottom, then 1mm of lower-percentage "fill" and then 1mm solid on top. (The "Fill Density" is a percent that you'll get in that intermediate layer. But don't worry, the outer walls will be solid, not low-density.)
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sat-19-Sep

My last effort for the day did not do well either.
It is saucer shaped. Spins like a top. Oh well, my grandson will enjoy it for a few minutes.
On the second layer on the top above the fill, it came loose and followed the nozzle around.
The table was cleaned with alcohol and allowed to dry.
New blue tape applied. Obviously didn't stick.
Maybe I should get glass and glue sticks. LOL.

Thanks for all you help and advice..
dlw
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sat-19-Sep

In the first post, it seemed your clearance between the nozzle and the bed was too small. Now, if you're not getting adhesion, perhaps the clearance is too large. Getting the clearance tuned in "just right" is crucial. What you should see if you look very closely at an individual trace is that it's got some "squish." It can't be like a cylinder lying on its side - that's zero squish. But it also can't be so thin that the plastic is squeezing out to the sides of the nozzle. The range between those two extremes is only about 0.2mm. So you need to get the clearance tuned in accurately, ideally with a precision of 0.05mm. This will take some experimentation.

BTW, I've got grandchildren too. :D
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sun-08-Sep

Is there a way to add the number of layers to the initial path before actually printing.
Mine doesn't seem warmed up enough. It goes almost through the first pass without laying down anything
Then, it is only a whisper of a thread. That is also trued with the first pass of the item itself.
Temp is at 210. Should I increase it?

Also, maybe the paper I use to adjust the nozzle is too thick. I will try thinner.

dlw
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Sep-Sun-09-Sep

Are you using ABS or PLA? ABS is a bit trickier to print as it contracts as it cools and can warp - just like you're seeing. While we old-timers from the original Printrbot Kickstarter started off with ABS (and without the required print cooling fan) PLA is a better material for beginners.

LIke Jay says tinker with the head to bed distance, along with (if Cura has it as an option) the initial layer thickness. If it isn't an option in Cura (which I only use on rare occasions, hard core slic3r fan) then that at least eliminates one variable. You can print somewhat smaller objects than the one you're using to get the adjustments down, kill it after the first layer or two, and it'll go faster.

No grandkids here, even with three daughters in their late 20s/early thirties...

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Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sun-09-Sep

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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sun-10-Sep

OCD = Old Codger Demented? Nah, that's not correct.
Attached is what I need in the end. Can this be printed front and back?

What is here is not to specs, but close. "If it ain't right, it's wrong." My friend Will would tell me.
It is also slightly convex, not flat. I have a .2mm nozzle. Maybe that will work better.

Getting better though, thanks to you guys.

dlw

PS: Downloaded Slic3r: more learning to do. Hope the learning curve isn't too steep.
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Sep-Sun-15-Sep

With that big gap between the bed and the print you either need to add support or turn it into two pieces. This is not an easy part to print. What you're doing is called bridging, a fancy name for printing over air. In the Cura bridging options turn on the "Touching Buildplate" option; you might need to switch to advanced (expert, etc) mode to see it. If the only issue you're having is a bit of convexity (or concavity, depending on your viewpoint) you're doing very well for a beginner.

The downside of support is that you'll need to remove it, and possibly will need to sand (or otherwise physically abrade) the little nubs left behind.

Using a 0.2mm nozzle will not help, it'll cause an exponential increase in print time (think 2x2x2), and will probably make the bridging problem worse. Tiny nozzles is an advanced user technique. For entertainment search the forum for tiny tree frogs, where you'll see Plexus won the award for the tiniest frog.

Old Codger Demented? So that's what I have; if you name it you can use it as an excuse and get away with anything :)

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Re: 1st Print.

Postby frankv » 2016-Sep-Sun-16-Sep

If it was me, I'd make that in two parts... the central axle part, and a separate disc with a hole through it. If the disc is to be driven via the centre axle, make the hole square (or triangular or hexagonal or whatever) with a corresponding square (or whatever) section on the axle. Make the axle part about 0.2mm smaller than the hole.
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Sun-18-Sep

Just to clarify - "bridging" can be done, but it means you are creating a real bridge between two supports. The bottom of the bridge has to be perfectly horizontal (i.e. all on one layer). The slicer will use a special pattern to create the bridge, and typically also may modify things like speed, extrusion percentage, fan speed, and even nozzle temperature.

The part you showed in your drawing is not "bridged" at all. You can't print something cantilevered out in thin air without "support." Support is a grid of thin walls that holds the cantilevered part from dropping down. It's an option you can turn on in your slicer; you don't have to create the pattern yourself.

You can print parts that grow larger, or are tilted as they rise away from the bed, but there is a limit to how steep the slope can be. Conservatively, Slic3r defaults to 45 degrees, but in fact you can go steeper; the slope depends in part on your layer width vs layer height.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
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Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Sun-21-Sep

This is where I'm headed. None of the parts are finals. I need to find out what my Printrbot Plus Metal can do.
The gear teeth are what I bought the .2mm for. The long extension is no where near correct.
The side with only 2 gears is wrong. The gears will be sprockets connected by a chain.
Still need to lean how to make sprockets. Will search YouTube.

Thanks again fellows.
dlw

Goodnight.
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby frankv » 2016-Sep-Sun-23-Sep

Yowza!

That's ambitious for a first print!

Some design tips...

Avoid overhangs. If you can't avoid them, try for a 45-60+ degree slope, the steeper the better.

Allow .2-.5mm tolerance when fitting parts together. That's especially true for moving parts.

Circles are always bigger *and* smaller than they ought to be... they're drawn as many straight lines which on average are close to a circular shape.
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Sep-Mon-06-Sep

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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Sep-Mon-08-Sep

Yes, it can do chain sprockets along with timing gear pulleys along with more types of gears than you knew existed.

I use (an update to Gearotic Motion). There's a demo, and I can create some gears for you with my licensed copy. The demo just has limited output, the simulator might be a good way to model what you want while learning a bit about gear design

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Re: 1st Print.

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Sep-Mon-08-Sep

I know printing in the with only one end attached is really cantilevering, but bridging is another of those 3D printing terms...

Like RJ said, start with some simple parts, maybe downloaded from thingiverse.com or on of the usual suspects, and learn what your printer can and can't do along with learning how to make it print better. I used to print the same smaller object over and over while changing slicer options one at a time to see what happened. However I am also a bit (of an) OCD.

Kirk

Autocorrect was working overtime on this, hope I caught them all
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Re: 1st Print.

Postby dlw » 2016-Sep-Mon-09-Sep

Thanks guys. I have work to do.
And, forget all those names I called you.
Didn't really mean em anyway.

dlw

PS: I am truly OCD.
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