Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

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Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby Radioman1017 » 2016-Feb-Mon-14-Feb

]Morning all,

My Printrbot Simple Metal is suddenly showing a lot of deviation in layers as it progresses upward. I used to get pretty smooth horizontal faces, but now I'm getting very obvious lines.

I'm printing with PLA and have played with temps from 200 to 215. I'm running the same PLA on my Metal Plus at 200 and I'm getting beautiful prints.

My printer long ago stopped accepting M212 commands so I have to adjust my height manually. Could it be a motor issue? Maybe a lubrication problem?

Anyone have any thoughts?

Here's a couple of pics.



IMG_7946.JPG
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Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby frankv » 2016-Feb-Mon-14-Feb

Loose belts? Loose screws? Play in the Z axis?

Watch as it prints... are the perimeters of alternate layers printed in the opposite direction (e.g. Clockwise vs CCW)? If so, any play in the mechanism will result in different physical head positions for the same XYZ coordinates depending on the direction of travel.
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby Radioman1017 » 2016-Feb-Mon-15-Feb

I just checked all my belts, tightened all of the screws and don't see any play in the Z-axis. (Not sure how to check that though. It's tight, the UBIS end is tight and all the way to the top of the bracket.)

I also lubed the entire printer.

To your point about direction, I'm doing the same print again and each successive layer is printing CCW. Still printing really horrible horizontal lines.

Mark
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby cacb » 2016-Feb-Mon-16-Feb

Could it be related to this issue: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=10417&p=67281&hilit=clamp#p67231

I.e. the clamp under the bed holding the x bearings?
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby Radioman1017 » 2016-Feb-Sat-16-Feb

So I took it apart, added washers on the left side of the clamp (mine only had washers on the right side like was mentioned by someone else) and put double-stick tape between the arched clamp arms and the bushings. Lubed everything since I had it apart, tightened the belt and reassembled. Still doing exactly the same thing. I'm printing a round piece and there are evenly spaced horizontal lines.

I moved to Cura and rep rap as the slicer to see if that made a difference. Nope.

Any other thoughts?

Mark
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby mdfast1 » 2016-Feb-Sat-21-Feb

Loose hotend? Sometimes that wiggle could cause it, though I would expect it to be more constant.
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby Radioman1017 » 2016-Feb-Sat-22-Feb

I checked the hotend. It's rock solid. Could it be an issue with the Z axis? Is there something causing it to not align correctly as it pulls up?

really perplexing. This was working fine just the other day.


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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby mdfast1 » 2016-Feb-Sun-00-Feb

Definitely some Z ribbing happening in a predictable frequency. Have you changed layer heights lately? Can you post a video of 100mm Z move upwards, maybe we can spot something with the threaded rod. Have you messed with your M92 Z?

Just throwing things out there. Can you feel any wobble in the linear rails when moving Z?
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby Radioman1017 » 2016-Mar-Sun-23-Mar

The linear rails feel secure. No wobble at all. Changing the layer heights lessens the horizontal distance between the ribbing, but does nothing to prevent.

Here's a video of me homing my Z-axis from a height of about 60. It looks pretty wobbly. https://youtu.be/iffLcVC3iew

I've seen a lot of other article refer to this as z-wobble as well.

Here's an interesting article that seems to be describing my issue. https://www.evernote.com/shard/s211/sh/ ... dcdd2d687e]

A couple of them suggested that their Z coupler went bad after a year and needed to be replaced. My printrbot is 14 months old. Is this possible? It's only a $6 part from the Printrbot store.

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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Mar-Mon-08-Mar

That Evernote article is pretty good. It tells you that the wobble you see at the top of your Z screw is of absolutely no concern, because the Z axis motion is constrained by the smooth rods to move straight up and down. Something in the article that I never thought of before is the resistance of the filament coming off the spool causing the cantilevered arm on a Simple to tilt up irregularly as the extruder pulls filament.
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby cacb » 2016-Mar-Mon-09-Mar

RetireeJay wrote:That Evernote article is pretty good. It tells you that the wobble you see at the top of your Z screw is of absolutely no concern, because the Z axis motion is constrained by the smooth rods to move straight up and down. Something in the article that I never thought of before is the resistance of the filament coming off the spool causing the cantilevered arm on a Simple to tilt up irregularly as the extruder pulls filament.


Friction in the filament feed is such an obvious thing to manage, but I am a structural engineer :D One of the first things I did was to design a spool holder for my Simple Metal, and I have been using it ever since: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:768718 . With such a setup the filament feeds straight down into the extruder with virtually no resistance.
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Mar-Mon-09-Mar

cacb wrote:the filament feeds straight down into the extruder with virtually no resistance.

I guess that depends to some extent on the type of filament and the type of spool. I also am supporting my spool on PVC pipe, and the spool itself can turn with very little friction.

I'm using T-glase filament, which until recently has come on spools with OD 125mm, ID 50mm. When I open up a new spool, the springiness of the filament causes the spool to "unwind" several turns. To be sure, I'm holding on to the free end and preventing any knots from forming (that is, I never let the free end pass under another turn) - but the result is that several turns of filament are now loose on the spool. Now, as I draw filament into the extruder, the slack in the "outermost" coil gets taken up, and it temporarily buries itself under some of the other loose turns.
Spool Loose Turns.JPG

As I continue to draw filament, I can hear and observe that the spool doesn't turn smoothly and continuously but rather seems to advance in jerks. So clearly the pulling force on the filament is not perfectly constant. In my case, it doesn't really matter because the geometry of the Plus doesn't have a cantilevered arm - but for the Simple, I guess the best solution is to find a way to make the pull from the filament go in the direction of a very stiff axis, i.e. put it behind the printer and use a tube to direct the filament into the throat of the extruder, as the Evernote article suggests.
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PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby Radioman1017 » 2016-Mar-Sun-16-Mar

I wanted to update this thread on this issue. I spoke with Mike at Printrbot and he suggested it could be related to my Z-coupler. The three parts, threaded rod, coupler, and spacer were only $20 so I went ahead and ordered all three. My apologies, but I forgot to photograph the procedure. Needless to say, the enter topside of the printer had to be disassembled to replace these parts. The new couple was smaller and the screw on the new couple is so small it took my smallest allen wrench to tighten. Even then, the flat side of the motor post is so hard to see I had to do this twice to get it right.

Anyway, once I reassembled (the second time) I made this test print.

IMG_8053.JPG


There are still lines on the print but it's better. When it was all apart, I took the opportunity to inspect the cables and such. I did notice one interesting thing. The cable for the X axis was wire tied in such a way that the "knot" blocked the X arm from hitting the end stop switch directly. This was factory constructed. I don't normally print that close to the edge but it was still interesting.

Anyway, I fear my Simple Metal is beginning to show some age. The motor on my extruder is suffering from stripping on the screw holes from the number of times I've had to take those out. Plus, it STILL won't accept new M212 / M500 commands so I have to set my Z height by hand. The Flashforge Creator Pro is starting to look interesting to me.

Mark
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby thawkins » 2016-Mar-Mon-05-Mar

Radioman1017 wrote:I wanted to update this thread on this issue. I spoke with Mike at Printrbot and he suggested it could be related to my Z-coupler. The three parts, threaded rod, coupler, and spacer were only $20 so I went ahead and ordered all three. My apologies, but I forgot to photograph the procedure. Needless to say, the enter topside of the printer had to be disassembled to replace these parts. The new couple was smaller and the screw on the new couple is so small it took my smallest allen wrench to tighten. Even then, the flat side of the motor post is so hard to see I had to do this twice to get it right.

Anyway, once I reassembled (the second time) I made this test print.

IMG_8053.JPG


There are still lines on the print but it's better. When it was all apart, I took the opportunity to inspect the cables and such. I did notice one interesting thing. The cable for the X axis was wire tied in such a way that the "knot" blocked the X arm from hitting the end stop switch directly. This was factory constructed. I don't normally print that close to the edge but it was still interesting.

Anyway, I fear my Simple Metal is beginning to show some age. The motor on my extruder is suffering from stripping on the screw holes from the number of times I've had to take those out. Plus, it STILL won't accept new M212 / M500 commands so I have to set my Z height by hand. The Flashforge Creator Pro is starting to look interesting to me.

Mark


+1 on the creator pro, it's a beast, and very reliable. Creates beautiful prints. The first thing you should do with it though is put a glass bed on it. There are some simple printable corner pieces that allow you to use a 10x8 inch glass plate from a $2 picture frame.

It's a bit odd to use for somebody from the Printrbot side, it's not really a usb machine, although it has a usb port, it's far far happier being driven from SD card, I have an article online that shows how to fit a $20 Toshiba flashair SD card so it can be driven via WiFi.

Note: for Marlin users, flashairs won't work with Marlin normally, but the latest build in the Marlin github repository has a patch merged that fixes the problem. You want version 1.1.0 (currently at RC4). Not this is the main Marlin repository, not Marlindev.

But the FFCP is a workhorse, repeatable, once setup it stays in calibration, and it's the only printer I have ever had that I can hit print on and turn around and walk away and not look back, knowing it will print. Failed prints are the exception rather than the rule. Metal frame, fully enclosed makes it great for ABS.

Also if you are serious about it, then budget also on getting a copy of simplify3D, you wont regret it, even if the price smarts a little. It makes all the difference, software for makerbot style machines is a little crappy, but simplify changes all that.
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby Radioman1017 » 2016-Apr-Fri-21-Apr

Thanks thawkins!

I just purchased the Flashforge Creator Pro. Should have tomorrow. It'll sit next to my Printrbots. :)

Can you point me to a good community?

Mark
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby thawkins » 2016-Apr-Sat-14-Apr

Radioman1017 wrote:Thanks thawkins!

I just purchased the Flashforge Creator Pro. Should have tomorrow. It'll sit next to my Printrbots. :)

Can you point me to a good community?

Mark


https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/flashforge

One big gotcha for most people, on makerbots, flashforge etc. 0,0 is in the center of the bed, not the front left side. So negative coordinates are valid. Once you understand that, some of its idiosyncrasies become obvious. It's particularly an issue if you are setting a slicer.

You can use slic3r etc, but you have to install a plug in for GPX, which is a tool that translates all the gcode into the binary format the printer firmware uses. Once you get over all the small differences and stop trying to fight them, it's a smooth ride after that. As I said I recommend simplify3D for use with ffcp it's a one stop setup. There is a version of octoprint that integrates GPX so you can make your printer look like a gcode printer on the network.

Just ask in the group, they are a vocal bunch

Ps: the "official" software for driving it is replicator-g, but it's a complete piece of shot, so don't bother. Flashforge have a new version of flash print which is thier slicer for the dreamer which now drives the ffcp. But most folks gravitate towards either makerware (the makerbot tool, free) or simplify3D (paid, but much better).

Buy yourself a couple of feet of 4 mm OD/2 mm ID ptfe tubing, it's a few bucks on ebay, Amazon etc. You can then use it to replace the internal extruder liners every few months, it only takes a few minutes and there are a bunch of instructions around for doing it.

The ffcp will arrive with a bunch of spare parts, sensor and motor cables, some spare brackets, bolts, nuts and other things. Stick them away somewhere safe, you wont need them at first but they are handy to have around.
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Jonbot+
225mm x 200mm - Heated Bed
RAMPS 1.4 running Marlin 1.1.0
Full Graphic display.
-------------------------------
Zen Toolworks CNC/3d printer
230mmx360mm bed
Dual j-head hotends.
Dual heated beds.
RAMPS 1.4 running Marlin 0.98
-------------------------------
Flashforge 3d Creator Pro
Dual Extruder
220x143x150mm
Mightyboard rev e, runnimg Sailfish 7.7r1234
-------------------------------
Photon, self designed printed printer.
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Re: Horizontal Lines Suddenly Appearing

Postby ktfergus » 2016-Apr-Sun-21-Apr

One big gotcha for most people, on makerbots, flashforge etc. 0,0 is in the center of the bed, not the front left side. So negative coordinates are valid. Once you understand that, some of its idiosyncrasies become obvious. It's particularly an issue if you are setting a slicer.

You can use slic3r etc, but you have to install a plug in for GPX, which is a tool that translates all the gcode into the binary format the printer firmware uses. Once you get over all the small differences and stop trying to fight them, it's a smooth ride after that. As I said I recommend simplify3D for use with ffcp it's a one stop setup. There is a version of octoprint that integrates GPX so you can make your printer look like a gcode printer on the network.

Just ask in the group, they are a vocal bunch

Ps: the "official" software for driving it is replicator-g, but it's a complete piece of shot, so don't bother. Flashforge have a new version of flash print which is thier slicer for the dreamer which now drives the ffcp. But most folks gravitate towards either makerware (the makerbot tool, free) or simplify3D (paid, but much better).

Buy yourself a couple of feet of 4 mm OD/2 mm ID ptfe tubing, it's a few bucks on ebay, Amazon etc. You can then use it to replace the internal extruder liners every few months, it only takes a few minutes and there are a bunch of instructions around for doing it.

The ffcp will arrive with a bunch of spare parts, sensor and motor cables, some spare brackets, bolts, nuts and other things. Stick them away somewhere safe, you wont need them at first but they are handy to have around.


Geez, what happens if you feed it after midnight?
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