Printrbot Talk Forum

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Fri-23-Mar

This is a continuation of which inspired and made possible the start of this thread on small printing...

----

Tiny frog with Jerrill02. i haven't figured out a way to break him free of the raft without amputating his limbs. so he lives on the raft. (the frog. not Jerrill)

I tried a print with 3 of them thinking they might be better because there will be time in between loops so they will cool more. turns out for some reason no. the single one is better than the 3. this is a very small print. i set him to be 5mm high.

**Sponsor**

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Sat-13-Mar

Some 1x scale prints at 100µm with the Jerrill02... also note the colour comparison with the other frog printed with a 0.5mm nozzle at 300µm. unsure why the Jerrill02 produces a lighter finish. perhaps some kind of mechanical stress at the molecular level because of such a small extrusion?

also notice at 100µm the nostrils resolve.

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Sun-23-Mar

Here is going the other way... small. I took part in RichRap's print something small contest on forums.reprap.org. my submission was a "toasty owl" an attempt to print small the owl in Laywoo-D3 wood filament, which is really hard to print with even large. so using Jerrill's 0.2mm nozzle, i decided to try small again. this is really pushing things but it worked. you can make out the eyes and other details. smaller than a kernel of corn...

In the last two pics, the clear frog is 0.5mm nozzle, 500µm layers 2x scale, the green is 0.2mm nozzle 100µm layers and of course our tiny toad 0.2mm nozzle 100µm layers.

by the way, that small black frog uses 6.8mm of my 3mm filament. measure that out, its pretty cool to see it as raw filament

[img]http://theplexus.com/3dp/tinyplafrog4.png[/img

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Mon-00-Mar

plexus,

Those tiny frogs are flat AMAZING!

I may have to try that print with my setup and see how small I can go with the mods I've made to my Printrbot.

Very cool. I'm impressed!

Jerrill

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Mon-00-Mar

Thanks Jerrill. the lower volume output of your nozzle helps a lot to print details. i am wondering though how a 0.1mm nozzle will work. but, can try it for sure. this definitely requires having a handle on everything, software set up and hardware fine tuning. give it a shot and let me know how it turns out. that frog is 4mm high with a scale of 16%.

by **mdfast1** » 2013-Mar-Mon-15-Mar

Jerrill awesome job, thanks for selling these. I need to dial in my .35 nozzle first then I'll probably head down to .2 or .1. I posted your page on google+ and twitter so hopefully you get more sales.

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Mon-23-Mar

Here's my first pass at tiny treefrogs.

The layers for his feet are a bit smashed. So, I'll have to work on that.

The little fellow on the left got a few spritzes of acetone to see what the surface finish would look like. His feet didn't survive the operation.

tiny-frog-cropped.jpg

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Mon-23-Mar

BTW, this was my first print using KISSlicer. Slic3r mangled the little fellow pretty badly. I have to say I'm impressed with KISSlicer's continuous lines around the feet. Slic3r had toes floating in space.

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Mon-23-Mar

.. getting there ...

the trick is to get layer definition.

oh and frog feet

by **hugerobots** » 2013-Mar-Wed-01-Mar

Outside of the sheer craft of artistic sculpture (bravo btw guys!), I'm wondering what kind of practical purposes this type of layer precision could be used for.

With the ability to print layers this thin, you could certainly produce needles with the diameters of syringes.

RFID implants anyone? hah

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Wed-21-Mar

I personally have access to one of those expensive 3D printers at work that made mechanical engineers swoon when we got it a few years back. They dropped about $35K on the machine. My big driver was to tighten up the tolerances of my $700 starter 3D printer (Printrbot PLUS) to beat it in terms of quality and operating cost. I think I crossed that threshold a couple of weeks ago. The one thing I can't do right now is print water soluble support material. I'm waiting for that triple extruder, Mr. Drumm, if you're watching! *ahem*

The next thing I'm going after is printing functional mechanical parts of a sufficiently small scale. I've done the gears and ball bearings made out of BB's, but I would love to print a functional clock or even a watch.

And while that's fun and all. I'm ultimately headed to outfit my Printrbot to print multi-layer circuit boards. I'm still looking for someone to produce some carbomorph (conductive to a few m-ohm/inch) filament. With a triple extruder I can have insulation (ABS or PLA), water soluable support (PVA), and conductive wires (carbomorph or other) and print 3D wired object and I can then glue electronic components on with conductive glue. THAT is something that traditional manufacturing can't do and the maximum potential of my little bot will be reached.

However, along the way it fun to learn and dial in the hardware printing tiny treefrogs! And speaking of treefrogs, plexus....

tiny-frog-2-scaled.JPG

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Wed-22-Mar

Another point of view...

tree-frogs-#2-above-cropped-scaled.JPG

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Wed-22-Mar

not too bad! whats their dimensions (height or scale factor)?

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Wed-22-Mar

4 mm tall according to KISSlicer... 16% of the model I found on Thingiverse that looked like the one you were using.

And my smaller drill bits arrived today! I now have a 0.15 mm, 0.10 mm, and 0.05 mm bit. We'll see if my nozzle factory is up to it. And thank goodness ABS filament strips before the hot end explodes. :lol:

Jerrill

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Thu-22-Mar

1 hour acetone vapor bath for the frog on the right! Very promising.

treefrogs-kissing.JPG

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Thu-22-Mar

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Sat-01-Mar

Here's another fun print. I experimented with an acetone vapor bath again. It was in there for 1 hour, but I kept checking it so I may have diluted the vapors. This is definitely a candidate for an even smaller nozzle.

mini-castle.JPG

by **DonaldJ** » 2013-Mar-Sat-03-Mar

Yikes!

You are approaching UV resin quality. What are your machine specs? Please don't say it's a stock PB Jr. with your trick nozzle and Slic3r...

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Sat-03-Mar

It's a Printrbot PLUS with a the mods listed earlier in this thread. "Trick nozzle" LOL... I may steal that. And yes, that particular print used Slic3r.

Jerrill

by **mikemwa53** » 2013-Mar-Sat-11-Mar

OK, so I also purchased Jerrill's awesome 2mm nozzle. Got it somewhat dialed in and decided to see if I could come close to the Tree Frog prints that Plexus was getting. They turned out pretty good for a start but I have a lot of tweaking to do.

101_0059.jpg

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Sat-12-Mar

Those look great! How tall are they?

by **mikemwa53** » 2013-Mar-Sat-12-Mar

Baby frog is .200"/5mm tall. 20% scale.
Big brother frog is .260"/6.6mm tall. 25% scale.
Right now anything smaller than that isn't looking good but I know if I tweaked it more it would work.
Klein bottle is 1.05"26.6mm tall.

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Sun-23-Mar

0.15 mm nozzle first print of the peg test. A little over-extruded but will tune over the course of this week and post better photos. The smooth upward facing surfaces are amazing.

150um nozzle vs.JPG

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Tue-22-Mar

I present to you... 3mm frog

(the black one is my 4mm frog)

[if you click on each image it will open in the browser and then you can zoom in]

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Tue-23-Mar

Damn. I need a better camera. Just wait. I almost have the 0.15 mm nozzle dialed in.

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Wed-02-Mar

More. showing scale...

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Fri-22-Mar

here's some castle work with the Jerrill 02 trick nozzle.

by **hugerobots** » 2013-Mar-Sat-23-Mar

You guys are starting to make me think that going to the cellular level might be possible from an in-home printer. Fingers crossed for off the shelf molecular weirdness!

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Sun-13-Mar

by **hugerobots** » 2013-Mar-Tue-10-Mar

hah! I spoke too soon.

Now if we can all put our heads together and get multiple extruder heads for bread, lettuce, tomato, bacon and one more slice of bread. Then, I can die a fulfilled man.

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Tue-23-Mar

New print with 0.15 mm nozzle that will be coming soon!

tiny-gears.JPG

by **Marcus** » 2013-Mar-Wed-00-Mar

That's awesome. I need a smaller nozzle... And a second printhead with PVA/etc. (or a slicer able to make great support

);
Thank you for putting so much work into this and everyone posting pictures and insight.

//Edit
I really need to see Slic3r-support with a 0.2/0.15mm nozzle, I suppose it will break off easier then structure printed with 0.5mm ...

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Wed-00-Mar

Marcus,

Slic3r can print using these nozzles as well. I'm just finding that I like the way that KISSlicer slices most models better. I said most. Every once in a while KISSlicer goes out into left field and really screws up the slicing. But generally Slic3r seems to generate really strange, wasteful tool paths that mess up prints with fine details and KISSlicer does not. It's really a "right tool for the right job" sort of decision. I generally slice in both and print the gcode I like best.

Jerrill

by **DonaldJ** » 2013-Mar-Wed-00-Mar

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Wed-00-Mar

Exactly. I switch the nozzle from 0.5, 0.4, 0.35, 0.2 depending on what i am printing. much like tools are chucked into power drives. the printer is the same. looking forward to getting a 0.15 and 0.1 from jerril!

by **DonaldJ** » 2013-Mar-Wed-01-Mar

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Wed-01-Mar

Yeah, I'm waiting until he puts me out of business selling official Printrbot nozzles in these sizes. :cry:

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Wed-01-Mar

by **DonaldJ** » 2013-Mar-Wed-02-Mar

Ha!

About 6 months ago I drilled out a nozzle, must have been close to 1mm and printed with it. The big extruder gear was spinning about 30 rpm, which was pushing a *lot* of filament. But there was so much ABS cranking out it didn't cool properly and was kind of blobby.

This was before I knew about fans, cooling, and such. Maybe I should resurrect "Fat Boy" and try again...

The object was to make big, strong brackets, and quickly; appearance be damned. .8mm layer? Sure.

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Thu-23-Mar

Goal setting.

by **Mooselake** » 2013-Mar-Sat-14-Mar

Plexus will be printing 0.3mm frogs using 0.01 layers in a month or two, that Japanese company will be viewing his pictures with disbelief, and then hire both of you when they find he really does have the world's smallest printed frog collection. I hope you remember us when you go on to fame and fortune.

It's time to see how many tiny drill bits I can break on the Unimat, so I ordered a set of 0.2 to 0.5mm bits. When they're gone I'll be asking Jerrill about a set of small nozzles.

My last PlexusProject(should be a tm), a micrometer adjuster, is working great. I can't remember which direction to turn the mic to get a little more squish, but with the marking's it's easy to get it right the second time. You two should get together and add one to the store, with an optical or hall effect switch, and a turn this way for more smoosh arrow.

Instead of .8mm layers, think big and .

Kirk

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Sun-01-Mar

0.15 mm nozzles are in the store along with a couple of other new items!

And 0.05 mm and 0.10 mm drill bits were destroyed in R&D. Fortunately, I got a couple of 0.10 mm nozzles out of it to play with. Photos of 0.10 mm nozzle prints coming this week! I have my sights set on the prints from that Japanese printer. And maybe a frog or two.

Overall, it's been a good day. Hated to bust $35 in drill bits though.

Jerrill

by **hugerobots** » 2013-Mar-Sun-12-Mar

Any off chance I can request a test print?
The chain mail on thingiverse seems like a shoe-in example for pseudo fabric at these tiny scales!

Still trying to dial in my printer to be able to be as precise as you guys have gone so far. I don't think my Jr's extruder head wobble would perform so well with such super small movements. Once it's tight enough I'll be hopping onto that .15 train!

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Sun-23-Mar

First prints with the 0.10 mm nozzle... 2 mm treefrogs!

2mm treefrogs-scaled.jpg

I have some work to do on bridging and retraction before I can get you the chainmail example. I've been trying to get that example to work for a long time myself.

by **carre55** » 2013-Mar-Mon-06-Mar

Thats just mental how well can bigger prints be done with it what about a pink panther lady

by **mdfast1** » 2013-Mar-Mon-16-Mar

Awesome Jerrill, I really want to see those dialed in. SOOOO Small.

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Mon-23-Mar

0.10 mm nozzle vertical alignment test...

Slic3r settings are improving... still need works on overhangs.

vase-scaled.JPG

Jerrill
http://www.jerrill.com

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Wed-23-Mar

Here's the first nozzle assortment like we discussed. 0.10 mm (EXPERIMENTAL), 0.15 mm, 0.20 mm, 0.25 mm, 0.30 mm, 0.37 mm, 0.45 mm, 0.60 mm, 0.80 mm, 1.00 mm, 1.50 mm, 2.00 mm sizes. Oh, and a nice case! Any tweaks to the nozzle sizes?

Jerrill
http://www.jerrill.com

nozzle-case-complete-scaled.JPG

by **plexus** » 2013-Mar-Wed-23-Mar

This guy is the Steve Jobs of Printrbot! :geek:

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Thu-00-Mar

I'm not quitting my day job just yet...

by **chickenbisket** » 2013-Mar-Thu-02-Mar

Have you considered making a smaller set? I imagine most people who are looking for new nozzles aren't really looking for anything larger than the one that currently comes on a new printrbot/hot end. The .4 nozzle lets you make prints pretty fast and ugly if thats what you're looking for. Heck on a 1.75 mm extruder the last nozzle would be larger than your filament. Also a few free slots in the case would be a bonus because most people already have a few nozzles with no good way to store them.

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Thu-07-Mar

chickenbisket,

What nozzle lineup would you like to see in a set then?

Jerrill

by **carre55** » 2013-Mar-Thu-08-Mar

Now I've bought two of your tips already wouldn't mind getting a case
Will you be doing them separate
If so is there a colour choice

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Thu-09-Mar

carre55,

I can certainly sell the cases separately, but I was planning to post the STL files to Thingiverse after I get a couple of problems worked out in the design. Maybe this weekend?

If you still want a case in a particular color let me know and I'll try and make it. I've been getting set up to do colorized natural ABS anyhow and it'll be a good excuse to try it out. I've got limited quantities of red, blue, green, black, natural, and gold filament that I can use too. It's a 29 cubic cm print so I would probably list it for $10 or $15 plus shipping. Printing it yourself would definitely be less expensive.

Jerrill

by **holmes4** » 2013-Mar-Thu-10-Mar

I am definitely interested in the STL of the case. My prints using the .2mm have worked well. I am not trying for the microscopic here - just finer detail.

by **carre55** » 2013-Mar-Thu-11-Mar

No I can wait if your uploading
I can aim for a good quality print once i finally get the darkbot to spark into life
Thanks anyway

by **chickenbisket** » 2013-Mar-Thu-21-Mar

by **chickenbisket** » 2013-Mar-Thu-21-Mar

Also gonna go ahead and double post here, but I was wondering what other mods you have done to your printer Jerrill? The tiny nozzles of course put out tiny amounts of plastic but it looks like your machine has no play in the x or y axis.

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Thu-21-Mar

chickenbisket,

You can see the list of mods here.

Jerrill

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Sat-19-Mar

Apparently at a certain point, the extrusion becomes so slow that the varying pressure from individual teeth of the herringbone drive gear engaging starts to show up in the print. Cool on one hand. Disappointing on another. I'm reaching a practical limit with the stock extruder gear with the 0.10 mm nozzle. I was hoping to reach the maximum resolution of the steppers first.

Maybe I need to design and extruder gear with finer pitch teeth now that I can print one.

Jerrill
http://www.jerrill.com

drive-gear-pattern-in-extrusion.JPG

by **RetireeJay** » 2013-Mar-Sat-20-Mar

Look up "Involute Gear." It's a mathematically perfect shape for gear teeth that result in precisely continuous translation of rotation rate from one gear to the other - as if they were two disks coupled by a piece of string.

By the way, adding the 4th linear bearing to the X carriage is risky. If you don't end up with all four bearing axes exactly parallel and coincident, then there can be large internal forces in the cage. IMHO, three bearings is ideal ("three points determine a plane"). Imagine a wooden chair on a concrete floor. If one leg isn't touching the floor, then it takes a LOT of force to make it touch and share the load equally with the other legs.

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Sat-20-Mar

I may have spoken too soon. Right after the photo was taken, the nozzle clogged and after a nice acetone bath and some compressed air I'm up and printing again and the lines are nowhere to be seen. I'm proud to say that that was my first honest to goodness clogged nozzle. :oops:

Jerrill

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Sat-20-Mar

Nope. They are definitely still there. It just took a couple of layers to see them.

Jerrill

by **Mooselake** » 2013-Mar-Sat-20-Mar

Maybe time for Drawcut's ? Some people have had them made on Ponoko for better accuracy.

Kirk

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Sat-20-Mar

As I'm sitting here watching this thing print oh so slowly, I'm thinking even bigger. Multiple drive gears like this "thing" except even more:

And a hobbed bolt replacement perhaps:

I would love to run the 0.10 mm nozzle at 100 mm/sec of filament... Hmm... I think this is a Darwin Award in the making.

Jerrill

by **Mooselake** » 2013-Mar-Sun-13-Mar

QU-BD's X-Truder also uses a pair of drive gears on both side of the filament, although the purchaser only pics look like they're still the non-hobbed gear version (I've ordered an RPM for use as a mill; not to replace my PB+). They're known for gushing enthusiasm, so be skeptical, but claim print (not non-printing moves) of on their dedicated non-mill printer.

Kirk

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Mar-Sun-23-Mar

Sappho's Head

The model is printed about 27 mm tall using a 0.10 mm nozzle.

Jerrill
http://www.jerrill.com

sapphos-head-on-printrbot.JPG
sapphos-head-bad-fit.JPG
sapphos-head-repaired.JPG
sapphos-head-post-acetone.JPG

by **phil_roberts** » 2013-Apr-Mon-11-Apr

Those frogs and busts are amazing. You guys are really pushing the Printrbot forward.

Thanks for making the nozzles available Jerrill. I just ordered a 0.15. Any general advice moving from 0.35 to the 0.15 (other than slow down)? Does PLA or ABS tend to work better?

by **DonaldJ** » 2013-Apr-Mon-13-Apr

by **chickenbisket** » 2013-Apr-Mon-17-Apr

Netfabb is what most people use to split models, the full program costs money but with the free trial you can split things and repair non manifold models pretty easily.

by **DonaldJ** » 2013-Apr-Mon-17-Apr

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Apr-Mon-20-Apr

Donaldj,

It was either Netfabb or Blender. I don't actually remember which one I used because I split it a few weeks ago for a larger version of the print. Both tools work really well though.

Jerrill

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Apr-Wed-20-Apr

Cemetery statue of a woman from Thingiverse. 0.10 mm nozzle.

Jerrill

cemetery-statue.JPG
cemetery-statue-scotch-tape.JPG
closeup-scaled.JPG

by **hugerobots** » 2013-Apr-Wed-22-Apr

Unbelievable. Well done, yet again.

Care to share you Slic3r or Killslicer settings?

I've been trying to nail my settings down to get really fine detail. Until then I just don't think one of your nozzles will do my printr justice.

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Apr-Wed-22-Apr

hugerobots,

Which settings are you interested in? I have lots!

Jerrill

by **Jerrill** » 2013-Apr-Sun-22-Apr

For those interested, the nozzle case is uploaded to Thingiverse!

Jerrill
http://www.jerrill.com

by **Trevarthan** » 2013-Apr-Wed-02-Apr

I've been looking around for a 3d printer since November. I think this thread just made my decision for me, as I need high resolution for jewelry lost wax investments and tiny gears. Do you remember those micro RC cars from the turn of the century? I think this print quality is approaching that size.

I'm also thrilled because I think the general population is convinced this level of quality is only possible with stereo lithography. Very impressive. I get the feeling this is just the beginning.

Would the fed pitch a fit if we just print a 3d scanned quarter next to a real quarter? Seems like an excellent measure of quality. Apples to apples and all that. Oh geez. That's a dime.

by **plexus** » 2013-May-Mon-23-May

Haha check out #4. i printed that with Jerrill's nozzle

http://thestar.blogs.com/worlddaily/201 ... -2012.html

by **DJNOS1978** » 2013-Oct-Thu-07-Oct

Care to share slicer settings?

by **snowtigercustoms** » 2013-Nov-Sun-18-Nov

by **AlexC** » 2013-Nov-Tue-22-Nov

by **disback** » 2014-Jan-Fri-13-Jan

Ok, time to revive this post in the hopes of finding a solution here. I've been playing around with my Jerill 0.2mm nozzle and I'm getting hung up on issues mid-print. Occasionally I'm getting material buildup on the tip, which starts accumulating until it becomes a blob that starts dragging around and ruining the print. I am trying to keep this nozzle clean, scraping away excess material with a razor before and after prints. Does anyone have any advice?

by **marmil** » 2014-Jan-Fri-00-Jan

disback-
I have not attempted to print this small and don't have one of Jerrill's nifty nozzles, but off the top of my head it seems that if it was either over extruding, or the extruder wasn't raising up the proper amount per layer that over time the head would end up dragging into the print. Maybe just a matter of dialing things in even more precisely?

by **plexus** » 2014-Jan-Fri-01-Jan

by **thawkins** » 2014-Jan-Fri-07-Jan

by **DonaldJ** » 2015-Jun-Sun-15-Jun

Been awfully quiet here lately...here's a recent well-known dragon (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:600550).

DIME.JPG

Printed with one of Jerrill's .2mm nozzles: .1mm layer, ABS, 25% infill, 2 perimeters. It's about 28mm tall.

by **Vaeder** » 2016-Jan-Sat-08-Jan

Hi,

dont know if this thread is dead... hopefully this post will bring it back to life.

I invented a new type of cold end, it does not use a hobbed bolt but a belt. I hope it will inspire a whole new type of extruders, called v-struders

One of my first customers, a goldsmid, has let me know that he was able to print without any problems with a 0.1mm nozzle using moldlay wax filament. Im now searching for a place to buy a 0.1mm nozzle or even smaller so I can confirm this myself. Anyone knows a good webshop, preferably with fast shipping?

To this moment I was only able to test the v-struder with a 0.4mm E3D nozzle. In an extrusion only test, using petg 1.75mm at 235 degrees celcius I was able to extrude up to 2 meters per minute of raw filament without any slip in a bowden configuration with a bowden tube of 1 meter long.

You can buy it at reprapworld under cold end extruders

Happy printing,

Vaeder

by **Mooselake** » 2016-Jan-Sun-10-Jan

If you can invent a hot end then you have access to a metal lathe to drill your own nozzles.

Kirk

by **Alberto21** » 2016-Aug-Thu-21-Aug

It looks like very nice, here i printed a phoenix myself

by **WestReak** » 2017-Apr-Wed-07-Apr

This micro frogs reminds me of a Russian tale about left handed man, who provided horseshoes for a tiny steal flea. His job was visible only using microscope.

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