Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

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Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Wed-12-Jul

After having a few issues with the extruder gears during assembly (had to shim the extruder motor and get longer motor bolts), I feel that spur gears would be a better choice for the application. Since I design gears in my job, I thought I should give designing a new set a shot. This is my first stab at it:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:26243

Copied from Thingiverse:
This is a set of spur gears for the Printrbot extruder. The original herringbone gears of the PB are not well suited for the application, IMO. The herringbones are sensitive to misalignment and give few benefits in return. The small spur gear is made wider then the large gear to allow for axial misalignment. The hubs are taken directly from the original Printrbot STLs. Gear ratio is the same as original. I have not yet printed or tested these yet but they seem to slice OK in Slic3r 0.8.4.

Technical Data:
Diametral Pitch: 18
Pressure Angle: 20 deg
Small Gear (pinion): 13 teeth
Large Gear: 43 teeth
Addendum Modification Factor: 0.35
Solidworks files are 2011 version.

I will probably print a set fairly soon, but I don't know if I'll install them anytime soon. Right now my PB works fine with the original gears, so I'm reluctant to go messing with something that's not broken. After seeing a lot of reports of people getting gears that are badly warped, hopefully these may end up easier to print accurately since they have straight teeth. Should be easier to clean up post printing as well.

I did look into using a 14.5 degree pressure angle as CL1 suggested in another thread since they would be less sensitive to center distance changes. But with the 13 tooth pinion it causes problems (lots of undercut, contact below the base diameter and worst: a contact ratio less than one). I could make some changes to help these problems but end up causing new problems. Typically with 14.5 degree PA a minimum of 22 teeth is recommended - 13 teeth is just not enough to work well.

I may try some different variations with this. If anyone has an feedback or requests, please feel free. I'm thinking about revising the large gear hub to modify the web that runs between the hub and the rim. I'm wondering if having the web off set as it is may be contributing to the warping some people are seeing in their supplied parts. Of course that offset is nice for printing but I may try adding some ribs that run the full width or something to see if that may help the warping issue. Of course, I could just end up making it worse!

I used Geartrax, Integrated Gear Software and Solidworks in the design.

Update: 05/07/12: A couple of owners of the LC Printrbot have reported that the gears on their extruders are larger than the .STL files that Brook has up on Thingiverse. Apparently the LC (and presumably the plus) use a different sized gears. That means that my spur gears will only work on the PB original (plastic parts).

If any LC or plus owners are interested in a similar spur gear set, I would need the following info at a minimum: # of teeth, OD, center to center distance and any other differences from the original Thingiverse STLs like the widths, how deep the hobbed bolt head recess is, etc. See edit 06/07/12


Edit 05/07/12 #2: Now mikemwa53 has printed and used these with good results. That's great but he has a PB plus. I would have thought the LC and plus would have the same extruder setup. Not sure if just the LC has different extruder parts or does Brook have some other variations floating around? Or is something else going on? - see edit 06/07/12

Edit 06/07/12: After getting more info from CL1, the size variations that people are seeing seem to be some QC and rev control issues from PB HQ being misinterpreted. These spur gears should work for any of the PB printed extruders (PB original, LC and Plus). Since Brook is coming out with another extruder that is laser cut, I updated the title to specify 'printed extruders'.

Side note: I do wish there was a strike through font on this board. I hate to delete stuff when editing as that can be really confusing. Changing to strike through would let me show what info is outdated and still show what's been removed for clarity. I changed stuff to red to try and highlight outdated stuff here - hope that's not confusing.
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Last edited by drawcut on 2012-Jul-Fri-08-Jul, edited 6 times in total.
Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder

Postby Dick Brewster » 2012-Jul-Wed-12-Jul

Thank you, I think i will eventually use those.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder

Postby k1nc81d » 2012-Jul-Wed-17-Jul

I believe the warping most people are seeing is due to the molded gears that Brook switched to rather than the printed gears. This was done to get the parts quicker to get the bots in our hands faster. I wonder if, in time, he will get a supplier for high quality gear rather than serviceable gears.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Wed-18-Jul

I believe there have been reports of both printed and molded gears being warped. Although the molded ones do seem to have more warping issues.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder

Postby extent » 2012-Jul-Wed-19-Jul

How do these compare with the spur gears from the original Wades design? I can tell that they're wider, is the tooth profile much improved as well?
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder

Postby mikemwa53 » 2012-Jul-Wed-20-Jul

Well looks like I'm your first Guinea-pig. I printed up a set and installed them this afternoon. I'm printing a part now. I''ll let you know how they work out.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Wed-20-Jul

I really don't know how the original Wade's gears were designed. The only info I can find on them is the numbers of teeth and that they are spur. These have a different number of teeth because I matched the original PB gears. I just took some measurements and designed a set as best I could from there.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Wed-20-Jul

mikemwa53 wrote:Well looks like I'm your first Guinea-pig. I printed up a set and installed them this afternoon. I'm printing a part now. I''ll let you know how they work out.


Well that was fast. I take it they assembled OK? Look forward to hearing how they work.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder (for PB original)

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Thu-09-Jul

Updated original post and title. Apparently the LC and plus use larger gears so these should only be used on the PB original (plastic parts).
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder (for PB original)

Postby mikemwa53 » 2012-Jul-Thu-09-Jul

They assembled fine. I had some extra cleaning up and adjustment to do because I'm having an issue with my bot I'm trying to figure out. My O.D. on parts is great but my walls and I.D. are off. Still I was able to make the gears work great. They mesh together good and there is no play in them. I like that you made the small gear a little longer.
My extruder calibration was off just a bit which was expected. I went from E522 to E510. I printed the gears at .2mm.
I just printed out a curtain rod holder and it looks good.
I have a Plus.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder (for PB original)

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Thu-14-Jul

That's great, glad to hear they work well. Any noisier with spur set? That's the only thing I can think of that the herringbone's might be better at in this application.

You have a plus? Now I'm a little confused. A couple of LC owners reported that the Thingverse gear STLs were larger than theirs and they had to print out the Thingverse extruder as well. I would have assumed that the LC and Plus extruders were the same? Or does Brook have some other variations out there?
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder (for PB original)

Postby mikemwa53 » 2012-Jul-Thu-17-Jul

What are the diameters supposed to be. I can measure them when I get home. They seemed to be very close to the ones I replaced.
I haven't heard any more noise from them but again I'll check. I know for sure it didn't drown out the rest of the noise.I like the gears so far.
I read those too and was confused. Something isn't right.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder (for PB original)

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Thu-17-Jul

The spur pinion should be 22.15 mm OD, the Gear should be 62.51 mm OD. Since they assemble and work OK, I'd say whatever you have is fine. The adjustment available should be plenty for minor size differences. One note: These spur gears will be a bit different sized on the OD than the originals. The gear should be smaller and the pinion larger. The teeth and ODs are modified in the design to try to optimize the mesh.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder (for PB original)

Postby mikemwa53 » 2012-Jul-Thu-18-Jul

Thanks. I will check them tonight when I get home from work.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder (for PB original)

Postby CL1 » 2012-Jul-Thu-22-Jul

drawcut wrote:Updated original post and title. Apparently the LC and plus use larger gears so these should only be used on the PB original (plastic parts).
All current plastic PB extruders use the same parts, regardless of model. The part variations and poor QC are being mis-interpreted.

Perhaps more useful to simply refer to gear SETs? The new Laser Cut extruder could create more confusion. So *Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders* might be the sweet spot title?

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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder (for PB original)

Postby CL1 » 2012-Jul-Thu-23-Jul

drawcut wrote:Or does Brook have some other variations out there?
mikemwa53 wrote:I read those too and was confused. Something isn't right.
I'll offer three words in explanation. Rev control, QC. ;)

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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder (for PB original)

Postby mikemwa53 » 2012-Jul-Thu-23-Jul

I'll offer three words in explanation. Rev control, QC.

I hear you.


My old Herringbone gears measured:
Small 20.88mm Large 63.40mm

Your gears that I printed are about:
Small 22.00mm Large 62.53mm
It's a little hard to measure them when their on.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder (for PB original)

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Fri-07-Jul

mikemwa53 wrote:
I'll offer three words in explanation. Rev control, QC.

I hear you.


My old Herringbone gears measured:
Small 20.88mm Large 63.40mm

Your gears that I printed are about:
Small 22.00mm Large 62.53mm
It's a little hard to measure them when their on.


Good! Those measurements are pretty much spot on for what I was expecting.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Spur Gears for Printrbot Extruder (for PB original)

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Fri-07-Jul

CL1 wrote:
drawcut wrote:Updated original post and title. Apparently the LC and plus use larger gears so these should only be used on the PB original (plastic parts).
All current plastic PB extruders use the same parts, regardless of model. The part variations and poor QC are being mis-interpreted.

Perhaps more useful to simply refer to gear SETs? The new Laser Cut extruder could create more confusion. So *Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders* might be the sweet spot title?

CL1


Gotcha. I'll update the OP and Thingiverse.

While the QC and rev control issues are not good, I find them understandable. It's a challenge for any company, much less a start up that got far more orders than expected.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Fri-08-Jul

Quote take from another thread since I'm guilty of dragging that one off topic (http://www.printrbottalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=906&p=7647#p7647)

CL1 wrote:
k1nc81d wrote:I guess herringbone gears may not be the best, but they look really cool. :)
That may have been part of Brook's motivation, but the reason he shared with me was that they dealt with the problem of off plane printed large Gears. I posted here before how I incredulously took the first Large Gear I ever put on a Hobbed bolt at PBHQ over to him in concern about how off-plane it was and he said, "It will work". My unbelieving stare was met with a repeat from him and a smile. And it did. And for many, still does. Maybe not the best set of gears for a number of other reasons, but it might be worthwhile to know that the helical gears were the *simplest* solution to the problem at hand at that time. The new all laser-cut extruder has spur gears. ;) :lol:

CL1


It's an interesting fix, but I would have rather dealt with the root cause of the problem rather than covering up the symptom. But that's 20 -20 hindsight.

Looking at a number of the extruder gears on Thingiverse, I've seen at least one where the claim is made that the Herringbones would be quieter and have less backlash than spurs. Noise: maybe but for these slow, plastic gears noise shouldn't be a problem if they are designed decently. Backlash really should be no different for similar gears - spur or herringbone - as long as they are both designed well.

I'm beginning to wonder if some of the early spur gear designs were just poorly designed and the herringbone attempts have just ended up with a better designed tooth mesh by shear luck. The original Wade's spur gears have an 11 tooth pinion. If that is used with no addendum modification and / or extended center distances it would be a pretty poor gear mesh. Loads of undercut and likely a host of other problems including noise and backlash issues. Hell, they might not even be conjugate!
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby simcop2387 » 2012-Jul-Fri-09-Jul

Personally I always figured that the herringbone gears were used for the extra force that it can get you without stripping the gears since you've got a larger mating surface area. Though I plan on trying these after some reports from you guys that they work, since they should make assembly and disassembly much nicer.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby mikemwa53 » 2012-Jul-Fri-10-Jul

Oh. And as far as the gears making noise......I don't hear anything.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby Dick Brewster » 2012-Jul-Fri-11-Jul

simcop2387 wrote:Personally I always figured that the herringbone gears were used for the extra force that it can get you without stripping the gears since you've got a larger mating surface area. Though I plan on trying these after some reports from you guys that they work, since they should make assembly and disassembly much nicer.


I'm skeptical of the utility of herringbone gears in this application too and will eventually try spur gears.

However, when something has been used for a long time by a bazillion people like herringbone gears in reprap extruders have, you have to wonder if they are the common solution because of the sheeple effect or if there is a real reason to use them. After all, there is a higher percentage of reprappers who are technically creative and think for their selves than there is in the general population.

What CL1 learned from Brook, that crappy wobbly herringbone gears pull each other into line and work may be the real reason they are used. If that is the primary reason, then I would rather have a set of spur gears that don't wobble.

Another argument for herringbone and other helical tooth forms in general is that they run smoother because they have more teeth in contact at the same time. That is a good thing with precision gears, but with printed gears, the teeth are fighting each other because they aren't precise so the helical tooth forms see higher contact stresses and would have higher losses with reprap printed gears.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby dataway » 2012-Jul-Mon-17-Jul

extruder.jpg


I got these gears setup on my Printrbot + and they are working great, my extruder motor is no longer running hot. So much more easier to align the gears and only had to do a minor calibration change to get the right feed amount. Very cool, thanks Drawcut for making up these gears....
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Mon-18-Jul

No problem. Thanks for the pic, they look great. I really like the look of the v2 gear with the traditional looking ribs. So what print settings did you use and how much clean up was needed?
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby jr57k » 2012-Jul-Tue-19-Jul

Any more reports on how these are working? My herringbone gears are pissing me off. The cast main gear just isn't straight and I'm on my 2nd stepper motor drive gear. To their credit however, I still get great prints. It's just not a very precision setup.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby mikemwa53 » 2012-Jul-Tue-19-Jul

Been using mine for almost 2 weeks now and their working great.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby jr57k » 2012-Jul-Tue-20-Jul

mikemwa53 wrote:Been using mine for almost 2 weeks now and their working great.

Sweet! I'm lining it up for my first print next time I get some garage time.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby mikemwa53 » 2012-Jul-Tue-20-Jul

jr57k wrote:
mikemwa53 wrote:Been using mine for almost 2 weeks now and their working great.

Sweet! I'm lining it up for my first print next time I get some garage time.


And I also print out all my Bot parts solid so their stronger.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby jr57k » 2012-Jul-Tue-20-Jul

Fair point... Thanks for the tip.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby scantrontb » 2012-Jul-Thu-00-Jul

jr57k wrote:Any more reports on how these are working? My herringbone gears are pissing me off. The cast main gear just isn't straight and I'm on my 2nd stepper motor drive gear. To their credit however, I still get great prints. It's just not a very precision setup.

one thing you might want to try is to print and change out BOTH GEARS as a SET from the same set of STL files/ same designer, and print them both at the same time. all to minimize variations between them. so when people here are just replacing ONE of the gears at a time, you are setting yourself up for failure down the road, because they will wear differently, have different points of contact with the other gear, etc...

one story that i heard when i was in the US Navy, about just this same concept... back in the "old days" before digital calipers and readouts, when they were manufacturing a new set of reduction gears for the Main Engines (high speed engines to low speed propellers) if the lead guy that was the one in charge of making the gears sets died or otherwise stopped working on them before they were completed, they would scrap the entire set because no two people could read the old-style analog calipers the exact same way as another... and that teeny tiny difference would totally trash the meshing of the two different gears, and could lock them up forever, or strip them to metal filings in the bottom of their housings... and when they cost in the millions... EACH SET... ouch... basically you're doing the same thing by only changing one gear at a time.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby k1nc81d » 2012-Jul-Thu-01-Jul

Right on. Same thing with a bike. If you replace a chain you need to replace the casette. If you don't the chain will slip when under strain.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Thu-18-Jul

I frequently recommend changing out gears as a set even today. Running a worn gear with a brand new one is typically not the best thing to do (but there are exceptions). Printing the extruder gears as a set may or may not improve things, but it is certainly something that I would try if I were having troubles.

Printing parts with solid infill: Be careful here. Some parts will work fine like this but some may end up warping on you. Once you get past a certain level of perimeters and infill percentage, you end up gaining very little in practical strength.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby PxT » 2012-Jul-Mon-21-Jul

CL1 wrote:The new all laser-cut extruder has spur gears. ;) :lol:


Mine does not — it has herringbone gears identical to the ones on my original plastic extruder. I will probably try out a set of these spurs with the LC extruder when I get a chance to print them.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby k1nc81d » 2012-Jul-Mon-22-Jul

wooden spur gears would be cool. How would you attach them to the stepper motors though?
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby Dick Brewster » 2012-Jul-Mon-23-Jul

drawcut wrote:I frequently recommend changing out gears as a set even today. Running a worn gear with a brand new one is typically not the best thing to do (but there are exceptions). Printing the extruder gears as a set may or may not improve things, but it is certainly something that I would try if I were having troubles.


Considering how crude the tooth profiles are on printed gears, I doubt mixing gears made from the same file on the same bot would be an issue. If the small gear is made of the same material as the large gear, it would be reasonable to go through at 2 small gears for each big gear. OTOH, as long as you are printing your own gears, there is almost no reason to not replace both at once.
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Re:Wooden Spur Gear Set for all Extruders

Postby CL1 » 2012-Jul-Tue-06-Jul

k1nc81d wrote:wooden spur gears would be cool. How would you attach them to the stepper motors though?

Here's how I'd do it
Large Gear is 3 or 4 laser cut pieces, all 6mm ply. Gear plate(s) is the actual toothed plate with a 5/16" (8mm) hole for the hobbed bolt and three 6-32 minor diameter holes to attach the hub pieces. Maybe add three periphery screws if using doubled up gear plates. If so, offset 60 degrees from the inner three assembly screw holes. Two Hub pieces are circles (or triangular) with hex cutout for Hobbed bolt head and three major diameter screw holes for assembly to the gear plate. Using 3/4 or 1" screws, there would be minimal screw sticking past the gear plate. Easily accomodated by the washer between the gear and the extruder body. 3/4 (19mm) nominal screw, 18mm assy thickness. Or 1" (25.4mm) nominal screw with 24mm thickness. Small machine screws are usually slightly short which helps.

Small gear is tougher! Use a similar construction of 3 or 4 layers, but offset shaft hole in middle layer so the action of the assembly creates side pressure to lock gear to shaft. Probably won't be enough, so glue or similar to assure fixity. Better would be to use a D-shaped flatted circle hole and the sideways-pressing assembly. Use the middle layer with the D-shaped hole as a gauge when flatting the motor shaft. 2 assembly screws should be fine.

Harden the faces of all teeth with thin watery CA superglue. Let it really soak in, then let it dry. Doing this likely makes the extra periphery screws in the large gear redundant at best!

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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby k1nc81d » 2012-Jul-Wed-09-Jul

I like to try one of these out, I imagine a wax could be used as a lubricant. I would still wonder about the longevity.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby CL1 » 2012-Jul-Wed-14-Jul

k1nc81d wrote:I like to try one of these out, I imagine a wax could be used as a lubricant. I would still wonder about the longevity.

A valid concern. Seems there are quite a few 3D printer makers using plywood gears on extruders with good success, so that must mean something?

The quick release Idler by itself makes the wood bodied extruder a worthwhile upgrade. They're listed as available in the store right now. 25 dollars. No hobbed bolt, gears or motor.

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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby dataway » 2012-Jul-Wed-23-Jul

I got my wood extruder from Brook and team at Printrbot and have to say it is working great with these gears. I tried it with the herringbone gear set and my extruder motor heated up, went back to this gear set and my extruder only gets warm. Installing the wood extruder was a very simple process took about 20 min.

I will Follow on with some pictures.

John
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby sebastian » 2012-Jul-Thu-05-Jul

I printed a set of these on really bad, uncalibrated settings, way too high temp and they work better than my original herringbone (cast) set. Now, with settings improved, will print both again to test how they really compete!

And after that i will have to learn to model gears myself in Inventor, i really like this design!
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Thu-08-Jul

sebastian wrote:I printed a set of these on really bad, uncalibrated settings, way too high temp and they work better than my original herringbone (cast) set. Now, with settings improved, will print both again to test how they really compete!

And after that i will have to learn to model gears myself in Inventor, i really like this design!


Glad to hear they work for you. Modeling gear teeth usually takes a special program. Solidworks won't do it without a special 3rd party add on. There may also be some scripts out there that can produce a true tooth form. If I can help, let me know.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Thu-09-Jul

dataway wrote:I got my wood extruder from Brook and team at Printrbot and have to say it is working great with these gears. I tried it with the herringbone gear set and my extruder motor heated up, we back to this gear set and my extruder only gets warm. Installing the wood extruder was a very simple process took about 20 min.

I will Follow on with some pictures.

John


That's pretty much what I would expect from the herringbones. The PB extruder design has them overconstrained so any axial misalignment or warp in the gears will give added friction. They usually deflect enough to allow them to work but I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. You end up with higher extruder motor temp (less life). And if there is any warp in the gear you'll have the friction varying widely with every rotation of the gear. That may be affecting print accuracy.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Jul-Thu-09-Jul

@CL1: Do you know if Brook is looking to come out with a wooden gear set? Sounds like a neat idea but I have no access to a laser cutter to try anything like that. I'd like to offer to help Brook with gear design but I'm doubtful that an email to PBHQ will get through the general flood.

Another laser cutter question: Would laser cutting plastic sheets be a possible alternative to wood? Something like Derlin or Nylon would be an excellent gear material.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby dataway » 2012-Jul-Thu-09-Jul

Here are a few pictures of my setup.....Thanks again Drawcut....

extruder3.jpg


extruder2.jpg


extruder1.jpg


I first printed the gears in PLA and have reprinted the Larger Spur Gear with Natural ABS with a Single Perimeter, .2 Layer Height, Perimeters MM/s set to 60, Extruder Temp 210, Bed temp 80, no fan used for cooling.

Regards,

John
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby j45on » 2012-Jul-Thu-12-Jul

They look great :D How much infill did you use ?
I need to print some soon , my cast gear is eating away at the printed smaller gear leaving white abs powder everywhere :lol:
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby dataway » 2012-Jul-Thu-17-Jul

I used a .7 infill for my gears.

I have the an extra large gear printed in PLA if anyone would like it, save you some printing time :) first pm to me will. Get it...

I only printed in ABS to test the new extruder to see how hot the E motor got during printing and it was only warm to the touch.

Regards

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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby PxT » 2012-Sep-Thu-18-Sep

I just received a set that I ordered from Shapeways. This is the wooden extruder version.
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Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby Eyebrow » 2012-Sep-Mon-07-Sep

Shapeways wouldn't print Drawcuts latest small gear for me.

Says the minimum thickness walls should be .7mm.

Hmm anyone want to interpret this image they sent for me....says .10mm???
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1348489886.438546.jpg
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby PxT » 2012-Sep-Mon-08-Sep

Looks like the wall between the nut trap and the center hole. It is a very thin wall but they didn't complain about mine. I used the SGearSpurV1.stl file. Make sure you repair it in netfabb (cloud or downloaded version) before you submit the file to Shapeways.
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Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby Eyebrow » 2012-Sep-Mon-08-Sep

I'll give it a crack.....I wouldn't have to bother if my herringbone gear that came with the plus wasn't so warped.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby PxT » 2012-Sep-Mon-08-Sep

If you can't get it resolved then I can make my copy on Shapeways available for sale. It's a couple of dollars more expensive doing it that way though I think.
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Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby Eyebrow » 2012-Sep-Mon-17-Sep

Cheers mate....price isn't an issue for these gears.

I'll let you know how i go.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Sep-Mon-18-Sep

That portion of the hub comes directly from the original .STL file. Could be a flaw in the original or it could have been introduced from importing that portion of the STL to Solidworks and re exporting things. PXT is right: Netfab usually fixes things like that if they give you trouble. If not, let me know and I can see what I can do with Solidworks.

PXT: love the purple gear. That's Gecko's variation, right?
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby PxT » 2012-Sep-Mon-19-Sep

drawcut wrote:PXT: love the purple gear. That's Gecko's variation, right?


Yes, for my wooden extruder.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby soke » 2012-Sep-Mon-20-Sep

Need some help re-calibrating to print the Sgear. My bots first 15 prints came out perfect, I printed the corrupt Sgear (3rd print) with great res at first and when finally came about installing netfabb, run the gear through and printed (20th print) the wall seems fixed but the print looks horrible. I'm thinking the problem might be the gears I am trying to replace that keep binding and dissolving. Here is whats happening:
Image
Image
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby scantrontb » 2012-Sep-Tue-23-Sep

actually that looks like what ?eddiema?or ?Plexus? (not sure...) was having difficulties with until he found out that the Z-Motor ITSELF was wobbling, even though the bolts were tight, thus making the Z-Threaded Rod physically move +-Z a tiny bit out of sync from the other one, and that would make one side of the X-Carriage a tiny bit higher/lower than the other... you get a slightly squished layer, then at the same spot the next layer might be slightly fat... but the difference is that it makes the wall look like yours does...
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby soke » 2012-Sep-Wed-23-Sep

It turns out it was extruding 11mm less and the hobbled bolt teeth were slipping in plastic residue making the feed inconsistent, after cleaning and recalibrating loosening the extruder springs a bit seems seems to help the gears.

Yes, the x-carriage hanging and the nut coming out is giving me nightmares. I tired two nutkeepers solutions from thingiverse to no avail, for the time being I keep it under control by hand pressure to the side that sticks before every print, at least it is manageable.

The Supr ur S gear is still somehow currupt for me, can someone please upload a fixed stl file?
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Oct-Wed-19-Oct

soke wrote:The Supr ur S gear is still somehow currupt for me, can someone please upload a fixed stl file?


Have you tried running it through Netfab as PxT suggested? I've been setting up a new computer this week, so I'm still getting things installed / back to normal. By this weekend, I should be able to clean up the parts in Netfab and repost to Thingiverse.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby soke » 2012-Oct-Wed-23-Oct

drawcut wrote:Have you tried running it through Netfab as PxT suggested?

To be honest I don't know what I am doing in netfab. I tried just opening the file then save it and also clicking clicking on repair and then save it. After about 5 different edits and prints I came up with a decent enough piece to replace the current gears and now getting much better prints. It's not yet ideal though, the extruder motor gets very hot and I am limiting to short prints.
drawcut wrote:I've been setting up a new computer this week, so I'm still getting things installed / back to normal. By this weekend, I should be able to clean up the parts in Netfab and repost to Thingiverse.

Thank you for taking the time to do this. I will be waiting and posting back the results!
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby PxT » 2012-Oct-Thu-16-Oct

soke wrote:To be honest I don't know what I am doing in netfab.



Use cloud.netfabb.com. You don't need to know any technical details -- just upload the STL and get the fixed version back within a few moments.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby soke » 2012-Oct-Thu-18-Oct

PxT wrote:Use cloud.netfabb.com. You don't need to know any technical details -- just upload the STL and get the fixed version back within a few moments.


Thanks PxT, that link is a lifesaver!
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Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby Eyebrow » 2012-Oct-Fri-09-Oct

Finally got the small gear from shapeways after running it through cloud.nettfab (thnx for the tip!) and Id have to say that the fit and feel is 100x better then the gear supplied.

Combined with the hyena hobbed bolt, I think I'm onto a winner.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1349448079.593796.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1349448096.089940.jpg


The only problem Ive had so far is that the nut keeper on the large gear was to small for my hyena and stock hobbed bolt head. Nothing a file and knife couldn't fix though.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Oct-Sun-08-Oct

FYI: I've updated the parts on Thingiverse to add fixed versions of the V1 parts. Netfab's cloud service really does a nice job with non manifold parts. (Thanks PxT!)
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby BigBoxDriver » 2012-Oct-Tue-14-Oct

They look great,

What material did you pick for printing?


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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby shai » 2012-Oct-Sun-21-Oct

I'm planning on printing these and was wondering if there's any adjustment to settings needed after installing these? Do I need to recompile firmware or anything? Or do they just work the same when I put them on?

Thanks.
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Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby Eyebrow » 2012-Oct-Sun-21-Oct

I just put mine on and adjusted the E calibration gcode by measuring the filament. Seems to work well.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby mdfast1 » 2012-Oct-Mon-11-Oct

You will need to recalibrate your 'E' feed. It's easy.

shai wrote:I'm planning on printing these and was wondering if there's any adjustment to settings needed after installing these? Do I need to recompile firmware or anything? Or do they just work the same when I put them on?

Thanks.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby shai » 2012-Oct-Mon-11-Oct

How would I go about that? Never done it before. Any help would be appreciated!
My filament is 2.85mm
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby mdfast1 » 2012-Oct-Mon-12-Oct

Check this out it's a good tutorial http://richrap.blogspot.com/2012/01/slic3r-is-nicer-part-1-settings-and.html. Also, check out Lincomatics blog which has more info http://blog.lincomatic.com/?p=654.

Use the commands in pronterface:
M92 Exxxx for your E calibration
M501 to See current settings
M500 to save

after you have figured out the proper xxxx value then put M92 Exxxx in your G-CODE header in Slic3r.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby MegaMoonMan » 2012-Oct-Mon-16-Oct

I printed a set and put them on my LC extruder. They work like a charm, FAR less slop in them than the herringbone originals. No slop at all.

I checked, and I didn't even need to recalibrate.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby holmes4 » 2012-Oct-Mon-18-Oct

I printed a set of spur gears yesterday for my LC+. They came out great and work perfectly. Much better than the herringbone gears I got with the kit.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby augspark » 2012-Nov-Mon-22-Nov

I just got a set of the version for the wooden extruder, put them on, and WOW – they look awesome! I also had mine made at Shapeways, because my original cast gear chomped through my abs little gear so hard that I could no longer print anything well enough to make a set :(

Those of you who have been using these - have you lubricated the gears at all? I would like the keep these looking this awesome – especially if they work as good as they look!

Cheers!

A
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby holmes4 » 2012-Nov-Tue-10-Nov

I have not lubricated the gears and I don't think that's a good idea.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby augspark » 2012-Nov-Tue-10-Nov

After running a test print last night, I think they are all good with no lube. My bot is back!

Here's a picture:
printrbotReplacementGears.JPG
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby MichaelWessels » 2012-Dec-Wed-19-Dec

Anyone else still having problems getting these from shapeways? I ran it through the cloud fixer and they still rejected it. Any ideas?
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby augspark » 2012-Dec-Wed-19-Dec

Are you talking about the version for the wooden extruder I used?
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Dec-Wed-19-Dec

Another member PMed me with the Shapeways issue. Error was the .7mm minimum thickness problem that Eyebrow posted above. I've redone the small spur gear completely in Solidworks and shifted the nut opening farther away from the shaft hole which should fix the .7mm min issue. Let me know if this works for Shapeways. This does leave less material between the nut opening and the OD so it may have less strength there.
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby MichaelWessels » 2012-Dec-Sat-13-Dec

Thanks. I got it to work and it is on its way. I can't wait to get it, because my small gear broke and I can't extrude more than the skirt before it stops feeding.. Thanks!
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby nepaholic » 2012-Dec-Sat-16-Dec

Can I use these on my pb jr.?
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby gyronictonic » 2012-Dec-Mon-11-Dec

nepaholic wrote:Can I use these on my pb jr.?


I assume you have a wooden extruder? This is the derivative of the spur gear for the wooden extruder.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:34671

Thinner version
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:29366
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby MichaelWessels » 2012-Dec-Sun-19-Dec

I got my shapeways piece and had an issue with the seated nut. The plastic inside stripped a bit and allowed the nut to rotate freely, I applied some expoxy putty and will let you know how it worked out.

EDIT: The epoxy worked and it is now attached. Looks really good but will need to wait for a week or so before I can print. Wish I had seen the posts about the wooden extruder needing a thinner piece. The feeder is probably 1 mm off center. We will see how it works. Might try and print the thinner one myself.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby drawcut » 2012-Dec-Tue-09-Dec

Was the slot for the nut too wide to allow the nut to spin? Or something else?
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Printrbot original. Major mods: Y axis extended to ~8", Z extended to ~8.5". 5mm SS Z threaded rods w/ flex couplings. E3D hotend. Purchased Acetel gears. Glass bed with Elmers' purple glue stick for most prints. Top of Z axis rods have added cross structure similar to a Prusia i3.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby MichaelWessels » 2013-Jan-Sat-12-Jan

yeah that was the issue. What I did was put a bit of epoxy putty in the hole and let it set. That bit onto the nut nicely,so we are good to go
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby plexus » 2013-Jan-Mon-17-Jan

I read through the thread. questions:

- is it worth getting these done by shapeways or is a 100µm or even 50µm print good enough?

- what shapeways material is best?

- for the PB wooden extruder, do I use drawcuts small gear v1fixed (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:26243) and Gecko's big gear (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:29366)?

- when i upload to Shapways just select mm as dimension and order? anything else need to be done?

thanks!
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby PxT » 2013-Jan-Mon-18-Jan

I don't think it's required to get them from Shapeways by any means. I ordered my set mainly just as an excuse to try out their service. I kept them sitting aside until this weekend when my small printed gear developed a crack so it made for a good time to swap them out.

The printed set I had been using up to then worked well for probably hundreds of hours of print time. That set was clear PLA @ 0.1mm I believe. The big gear is still perfectly usable. If I had a replacement PLA small gear on hand I would have just swapped that out and kept going.

Select mm when you upload. I printed in the "Strong and Flexible" plastic material.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby plexus » 2013-Jan-Tue-00-Jan

I am printing them out with 100µm layers, 350µm nozzle, red ABS with 100% infill. that should be good enough. it would cost about $50 total from shapeways for both gears because I am in canada and have to pay $10 brokerage and 13% tax. so i'll work with the printed ones and see how that goes. they are turning out nice.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby holmes4 » 2013-Jan-Tue-10-Jan

I printed my spur gears at .2mm with 40% infill and green ABS. They work very well.
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Re: Spur Gear Set for PrintrBot Printed Extruders

Postby plexus » 2013-Jan-Tue-14-Jan

holmes4 wrote:I printed my spur gears at .2mm with 40% infill and green ABS. They work very well.


Good to know. if i am not in a rush and the part justifies it, I will print at the finest layers i can and the most infill. gears like this are parts that will benefit from the highest quality print possible. however it took 7 hours to print at a fairly fast speed between 70-150 mm/s depending on what section is being printed.
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