Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Talk about modifications to the printer

Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Wed-07-Apr

It looks like this topic has gained some traction, so I started a new thread for the discussion / development of the X bed depth. This is a continuation of a discussion started on the "Simple-300mm Y axis, No sag!" thread. Here is a link to the beginning of the X bed discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6306#p44095
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Simple X Bed Depth Increase

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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Wed-07-Apr

It makes me smile to see how many people are working on the same topic, with very similar designs.

I too drew up an idea, but got sidetracked on other things. Although there may be other ways to go about expanding the X axis rods, it looks like the simplest is to use the existing front bearing slot for location and add another bearing holder in front of the machine. Below is an image of where I left off. I still want to make the rod ends "pretty" but I just left it at "functional".

EddB wrote: I think I am going to have to mod your X gt2 bed extension to put the bed mounting holes further out.


EddB: You had mentioned wanting to mod the end mounts, and it looks like you have a working bearing holder. If you like I could match your rod spacing and adjust my ends to fit your rod locations. My design currently uses 125mm spacing between the rods, which keeps the ends printable on a 6x6 bed.

ExtendXExpandBearings.JPG
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby thawkins » 2014-Apr-Wed-07-Apr

Jon Lawrence wrote:It makes me smile to see how many people are working on the same topic, with very similar designs.

I too drew up an idea, but got sidetracked on other things. Although there may be other ways to go about expanding the X axis rods, it looks like the simplest is to use the existing front bearing slot for location and add another bearing holder in front of the machine. Below is an image of where I left off. I still want to make the rod ends "pretty" but I just left it at "functional".

EddB wrote: I think I am going to have to mod your X gt2 bed extension to put the bed mounting holes further out.


EddB: You had mentioned wanting to mod the end mounts, and it looks like you have a working bearing holder. If you like I could match your rod spacing and adjust my ends to fit your rod locations. My design currently uses 125mm spacing between the rods, which keeps the ends printable on a 6x6 bed.

ExtendXExpandBearings.JPG


I suspect this is not practical, but the issue with driving the bed on the edge is it creates a rotational force around the center of the bed which may cause problems.

If the motor could be moved to the center of the two bars, and rotated by 90 degrees to sit on its back, it would result in a far more even distribution of force, and would be easier to access.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby evanalmighty » 2014-Apr-Wed-08-Apr

I did think about moving the X motor out and place it directly under the bed. Some Z height will be sacrificed for sure, but it might be for the best. Also, it'll give us all another reason to tackle the Z axis. I love how one mod seems to always lead to another.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Wed-08-Apr

thawkins wrote:I suspect this is not practical, but the issue with driving the bed on the edge is it creates a rotational force around the center of the bed which may cause problems.

If the motor could be moved to the center of the two bars, and rotated by 90 degrees to sit on its back, it would result in a far more even distribution of force, and would be easier to access.


The options as I see them:
1. Drive from the edge as designed. Plus: stock motor location, close to stock setup. Minus: Undesirable torque placed on bed.
2. Move motor to center and drive from between the rods. Plus: no torque placed on bed during acceleration and deceleration movements. Minus: give up significant Z build height to get the bed over the X axis motor.
3. Create X axis motor shaft extension. Plus: less reduction in Z height, but benefits of center drive option #2. Minus: Still lose some Z build height, added complexity of drive mechanism (additional bearings, shaft, coupling, etc.), and no clear solution for how to get the drive shaft over/under the innermost X bed linear rail.

I am sounding like a wet blanket to your idea, and that is not the intention. I love the concept, just struggling with the implementation on the Simple.
Anybody have any ideas how this may be accomplished?

One more thought: Use a lead screw to drive the X axis from the center. This may be done by rotating the X motor 90 degrees, timing belt to a lead screw that is parallel to X axis rods. Timing belt can travel over the rear rod and back under the rear rod to keep the motor elevation the same (insert the rod thru the center of the timing belt, between the drive pulleys at assembly). Just have to fit a lead screw / bearings / and drive pulley under the bed so some Z will still be lost.

Thoughts?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby thawkins » 2014-Apr-Wed-09-Apr

Jon Lawrence wrote:
thawkins wrote:I suspect this is not practical, but the issue with driving the bed on the edge is it creates a rotational force around the center of the bed which may cause problems.

If the motor could be moved to the center of the two bars, and rotated by 90 degrees to sit on its back, it would result in a far more even distribution of force, and would be easier to access.


The options as I see them:
1. Drive from the edge as designed. Plus: stock motor location, close to stock setup. Minus: Undesirable torque placed on bed.
2. Move motor to center and drive from between the rods. Plus: no torque placed on bed during acceleration and deceleration movements. Minus: give up significant Z build height to get the bed over the X axis motor.
3. Create X axis motor shaft extension. Plus: less reduction in Z height, but benefits of center drive option #2. Minus: Still lose some Z build height, added complexity of drive mechanism (additional bearings, shaft, coupling, etc.), and no clear solution for how to get the drive shaft over/under the innermost X bed linear rail.

I am sounding like a wet blanket to your idea, and that is not the intention. I love the concept, just struggling with the implementation on the Simple.
Anybody have any ideas how this may be accomplished?

One more thought: Use a lead screw to drive the X axis from the center. This may be done by rotating the X motor 90 degrees, timing belt to a lead screw that is parallel to X axis rods. Timing belt can travel over the rear rod and back under the rear rod to keep the motor elevation the same (insert the rod thru the center of the timing belt, between the drive pulleys at assembly). Just have to fit a lead screw / bearings / and drive pulley under the bed so some Z will still be lost.

Thoughts?


I think the amount of z height loss could be minimised, the current stack has the bed plate sitting ontop of the rods, and the bed itself then sits ontop of that ontop of the springs. If the drive plane was just below the top bed, then the extra height of the sprung bed could be minimised.

Another consideration is switching to autoleveling where the bed does not need to be sprung or adjustable. Which would take a load of height out. So space required for adjustment would eliminated.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby evanalmighty » 2014-Apr-Wed-09-Apr

I say we should leave the X motor where it is and see how the bed performs before moving it. Ideally it should be centered, but it might just work where it is.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Wed-10-Apr

I agree with evanalmighty. yes putting torque on the one side of the bed may cause some lag on the far side leading to jams. but we don't know how far out that is. it could be 3 inches or it could be 12 inches. experimentation is needed

And really if you wanted to move the x motor to the middle of the table your moving out past the wooden frame by a far bit. so you simply raise the whole rig up the height of the motor and rotate the belt ends to the middle of the end caps and extend them downwards, much like regular belt mounts but on the bottom.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Wed-12-Apr

If anybody is feeling adventrous and wants to "experiment" here are some files to play with.

Requirements:
    8mm rod length = 140mm + stroke
    Bed mounting holes = (146mm + stroke) x 135mm with back hole about 20mm in from back edge to clear belt anchor.
Warranties expressed or implied:
    NONE :D
Best of luck!

BearingExtension2014-04-09.STL

RodEndXB2014-04-09.STL

RodEndXB-Mirror2014-04-09.STL

ExtendXExpandBearings2014-04-09.JPG
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby ahaer » 2014-Apr-Wed-14-Apr

You don't have to move the motor in order to get the gear under the center of the bed. What you could do is use the stock x motor mount to hold the motor. Make a version of Jon'x 608 bearing plate that replaces the short piece at the front of the printer and holds 2 608 bearings and another 5mm bearing (605??). the 608 would in the normal location left and right of the GT2 gear and a new bearing behind the gear to support a 5mm shaft that has the GT2 gear on one end and a coupler to the motor on the other. (ie GT2 gear, 605 bearing through back of place, ~75mm of shaft, then coupler to motor) This would probably requiring lifing the bed a little bit so it would go over the bearing and belt - I'm guessing around 5-10mm..

Sorry I don't have a quick way to sketch it out right now...
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Wed-14-Apr

Anyway you could push it out to fit a 8" bed? I have a 8x8 heatbed and i've ordered a plate for it but i want to use something like this to support it?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Wed-14-Apr

killbox wrote:Anyway you could push it out to fit a 8" bed? I have a 8x8 heatbed and i've ordered a plate for it but i want to use something like this to support it?

As shown a 8" deep bed will fit nicely. Your bed will overhang the front by about 2".

We can stretch to whatever you like. The issue is what size can you print in order to do the upgrade?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Wed-15-Apr

ahaer wrote:You don't have to move the motor in order to get the gear under the center of the bed. What you could do is use the stock x motor mount to hold the motor. Make a version of Jon'x 608 bearing plate that replaces the short piece at the front of the printer and holds 2 608 bearings and another 5mm bearing (605??). the 608 would in the normal location left and right of the GT2 gear and a new bearing behind the gear to support a 5mm shaft that has the GT2 gear on one end and a coupler to the motor on the other. (ie GT2 gear, 605 bearing through back of place, ~75mm of shaft, then coupler to motor) This would probably requiring lifing the bed a little bit so it would go over the bearing and belt - I'm guessing around 5-10mm..

Sorry I don't have a quick way to sketch it out right now...

Jon Lawrence wrote:3. Create X axis motor shaft extension. Plus: less reduction in Z height, but benefits of center drive option #2. Minus: Still lose some Z build height, added complexity of drive mechanism (additional bearings, shaft, coupling, etc.), and no clear solution for how to get the drive shaft over/under the innermost X bed linear rail.


Sounds like we have similar thoughts, but you describe it much better and I didn't even include the belt bearings.
I am still not clear on how to cross the rotary drive shaft and the linear bearing shaft. They would occupy the same space, unless you raise the bed linear shafts up over the new drive shaft.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Wed-15-Apr

i'm not talking about 8 in the x, i'm talking about 8 in the y. i am using you thing:257841 with a xl bed, giving me 10.5 inches of x travel. i would like, if at all possible for a modded file of thing:257841. so that it will fit a bed 8x8 inches, with the mounting points for the bed at 8.5 inches. giving me a print about 9ish inches long leaving me 1.5 inches of playing room.

I plan on finding the limit of the simple in terms of size and then figuring a way to make it bigger.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Wed-16-Apr

It amazes me how quickly this community can come up with a solution to a problem that they come across. Imagine how much the Simple can improve in just one month or even in a year.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby dmaxx67 » 2014-Apr-Wed-18-Apr

HA! I just got done with building the x upgrade from ol' jon. You guys are simply one of the best communities I have ever been apart of. This is awesome. Once i get my ramps, x upgrade, y axis no sag upgrade installed and fine tuned again. I will be starting all over again with this! This is awesome.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Wed-19-Apr

killbox wrote:i'm not talking about 8 in the x, i'm talking about 8 in the y. i am using you thing:257841 with a xl bed, giving me 10.5 inches of x travel. i would like, if at all possible for a modded file of thing:257841. so that it will fit a bed 8x8 inches, with the mounting points for the bed at 8.5 inches. giving me a print about 9ish inches long leaving me 1.5 inches of playing room.

I plan on finding the limit of the simple in terms of size and then figuring a way to make it bigger.

Have to admit, I'm a little confused here. This thread is specifically talking about ways to increase the bed in the Y direction.

Are you looking to keep the bearings and rod spacing in the stock locations?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Wed-19-Apr

ahaer wrote:You don't have to move the motor in order to get the gear under the center of the bed. What you could do is use the stock x motor mount to hold the motor. Make a version of Jon'x 608 bearing plate that replaces the short piece at the front of the printer and holds 2 608 bearings and another 5mm bearing (605??). the 608 would in the normal location left and right of the GT2 gear and a new bearing behind the gear to support a 5mm shaft that has the GT2 gear on one end and a coupler to the motor on the other. (ie GT2 gear, 605 bearing through back of place, ~75mm of shaft, then coupler to motor) This would probably requiring lifing the bed a little bit so it would go over the bearing and belt - I'm guessing around 5-10mm..

Sorry I don't have a quick way to sketch it out right now...

2nd thought. If you can find a slick way to get a drive shaft across the linear rods, why not drive the bed from BOTH sides. Mount another GT2 X plate in front of the bed instead of under it. Simply put an idler bearing in the center hole instead of a motor.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Wed-20-Apr

I am confused, what would be accomplished by driving the bed from both sides? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, I just need clarification.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Wed-20-Apr

greenb wrote:I am confused, what would be accomplished by driving the bed from both sides? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, I just need clarification.

thawkins' original concern was by driving a wide bed by one edge, the bed would tend to twist instead of travel in a straight line. By driving both edges simultaneously the bed would be pushed evenly by both sides. No unwanted torque on the print bed.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Wed-20-Apr

Jon Lawrence"

[quote="EddB wrote:
I think I am going to have to mod your X gt2 bed extension to put the bed mounting holes further out.


EddB: You had mentioned wanting to mod the end mounts, and it looks like you have a working bearing holder. If you like I could match your rod spacing and adjust my ends to fit your rod locations. My design currently uses 125mm spacing between the rods, which keeps the ends printable on a 6x6 bed.[/quote]

The version I am working on is using the front bearing mount to friction fit a tab of the new plate and secure with zip-ties. The part hidden under the base is also about 1mm wider than the existing base, you you have to loosen the side wall, clip it into the bearing mount mount and then tighten the side plates. It's very rigid with very tight tolerances. It has to be printed with support. That's what I have been trying to work out. If you don't have a extremely accurate setup and comfortable with support material, then it wouldn't be for you. I had a terrible time using repetier with support material. Started with 3 different print setups, all 3 where unusable. Cura on the other hand is so spot on and fast! Printed 2 different models that fit like a glove. I just wish it had the manual controls setup like repetier.
Also added captive nut/mounting holes, since I mount mine onto a board. How rigid it is, this will help with any front end weight sway.
Now the arm. My rod centers are 140mm from each other! The arms themselves require an 8" print length! I used your current ones from the x-mod (since I am setup for them and the work so well! Hope you don't mind ;-)) Basically I took one of your arms, cut the end mount off of it and added half of another another arm. I added a small stiffening rib underneath, removed about 1/2" of the bolt mount arm (use more bed/rod width) as well as adding m4 bolts/captive nuts and heavier 1 1/4" springs.
One thing you may notice, I left room in the center bearing mount on the base / rod mounts on the arms. If there is any flexing of the arms, stability or you just want it, you can still mount a rod/bearings in the old stock location as well. You could have 3 rod/bearing setups (might releve or create twisting torque pressure on the motor).
I really like the design of yours, a lot less material and the design looks like the shape will handle stresses from all angles! I might have to print it out and test it on my son's simple. Your design will be a lot easier to print and use for the majority of people. I might also have to pick your brains for design ideas for my next project. :idea:
Last part for mine, I am working on clips for aluminum channel. I want my x axis to mount an aluminum frame. The actual bed can be changed depending on what I need. Glass, aluminum, heated, kapton or all of the above. Just remove the binder clips to remove it and swap in a new one. I am aming to fit an 8.5" x 12.5" piece of borosilicate glass as my main surface.
Here's a picture of what it looks like on my test simple. (with the your original x-mod arm beside it. Also not the rods I'm using, just a test setup.)
Ed
1397095372112.jpg
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Wed-20-Apr

what happens if the bed was pulled between the two sets of bearings? I don't think there would be a tendency to pull to one side because the belt would be pulled between the bearings
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Wed-22-Apr

I want to do the same as EddB but bring out to fit a 8x8 inch bed.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Thu-10-Apr

Where to start... Lets see:
EddB wrote:The version I am working on is using the front bearing mount to friction fit a tab of the new plate and secure with zip-ties.

We are on the same page here. The image doesn't show it, but there is a hourglass looking thing that locates in the old bearing slot.

EddB wrote:Cura on the other hand is so spot on and fast! Printed 2 different models that fit like a glove. I just wish it had the manual controls setup like repetier.

Can you slice with Cura, and print with Repetier (showing his ignorance of other software)?

EddB wrote:Now the arm. My rod centers are 140mm from each other!

I extended my 125mm rod centers out to 140mm to match yours. Maybe you can plug & play to test both if the mood strikes you. I love cross compatibility and standardization wherever possible!

BearingExtension140mm_2014-04-10.STL

EddB wrote:The arms themselves require an 8" print length! I used your current ones from the x-mod (since I am setup for them and the work so well! Hope you don't mind ;-)) Basically I took one of your arms, cut the end mount off of it and added half of another another arm. I added a small stiffening rib underneath, removed about 1/2" of the bolt mount arm (use more bed/rod width) as well as adding m4 bolts/captive nuts and heavier 1 1/4" springs.

I don't mind at all. I am just happy you like it enough to rework it.
While I was in the model I stretched the ends. Good idea on increasing the bed mounting screw size, so I stole that one and incorporated in the following files. :D I also shifted the mounting holes in a bit to allow more meat around them. Since there is no chance of using the stock plate here, we are no longer constrained to match the stock mounting hole locations.

RodEnd_140mm_2014-04-10.STL

RodEnd_140mm-Mirror_2014-04-10.STL

EddB wrote:One thing you may notice, I left room in the center bearing mount on the base / rod mounts on the arms. If there is any flexing of the arms, stability or you just want it, you can still mount a rod/bearings in the old stock location as well. You could have 3 rod/bearing setups (might releve or create twisting torque pressure on the motor).

I lost this ability, so you have an advantage here...
Separating the bearings will allow a much grater tolerance to any twisting by the motor. I don't believe this will be an issue.
The biggest issue I see is twisting in the Y-Z plane. If you hold the rod ends in you hands and twist opposite corners in opposite directions the rods will spin in the sockets screwing up your leveling. I have experienced this on the current model just last night! After changing my hot end over to an E3D my bed was all twisted up and nothing was level. It took me a while moving the head and turning screws to figure out that I must have leaned on the bed and tweaked it while replacing the hot end. Once again, separating the bearings will correct this problem.

EddB wrote: I might also have to pick your brains for design ideas for my next project. :idea:

My brain is open and free for the picking...or is that my nose? In either case I would be happy to offer whatever I can.

And finally the overall layout of the April 10 version:

ExtendXExpandBearings_2014-04-10.JPG
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Thu-14-Apr

Jon Lawrence wrote:
EddB wrote:One thing you may notice, I left room in the center bearing mount on the base / rod mounts on the arms. If there is any flexing of the arms, stability or you just want it, you can still mount a rod/bearings in the old stock location as well. You could have 3 rod/bearing setups (might releve or create twisting torque pressure on the motor).

I lost this ability, so you have an advantage here...
Separating the bearings will allow a much grater tolerance to any twisting by the motor. I don't believe this will be an issue.
The biggest issue I see is twisting in the Y-Z plane. If you hold the rod ends in you hands and twist opposite corners in opposite directions the rods will spin in the sockets screwing up your leveling. I have experienced this on the current model just last night! After changing my hot end over to an E3D my bed was all twisted up and nothing was level. It took me a while moving the head and turning screws to figure out that I must have leaned on the bed and tweaked it while replacing the hot end. Once again, separating the bearings will correct this problem.


I had this concern with your prior x-upgrade since they twisted so easily while holding them, but once they where on the machine it didn't seem to have the problem. I am hoping this will be the same with this version but the smallest movement will be exaggerated the larger we go. I really thought that would be a problem with your Y upgrade (but thing the extended rear mount for same size rods tightened it up!) That is one of the reasons I left the option for the middle bearing /rod mount. It could potentially correct this problem (if It's even a problem). The only other options would be to spread the bearings out more, or tap the very end of the rod ends and tighten the arms to the rods with some bolts. (or maybe a little McGyver fix with some hot glue to the rods in place on the arms.) But I haven't even run the setup yet, so I don't want to go fixing it until I know it's a problem. I'm also thinking the rigid aluminum bed frame and heavier springs may help against this as well!
I like this size of the bed since that is the depth of my heatbed (even if the length is overkill :-) ) I know the simple can handle the added weight and side shift (if anchored to the surface) since I am already running you x and Y upgrades at a length of 8x15. I have added weight since it is a 1/4" acrylic base bolted as the bed with a 1/4 inch neoprene type automotive insulation, then my 8x8 heatbed and a piece of single pane glass. I had to stick a clipboard chipboard backing under the insulation since the acrylic started sagging under the heat/weight. I cant't extend the Y over 6" because the bed starts to sag. That's what got me started on this design and that's why I want to use the aluminum bed frame with customizable tops and heavier springs to handle any load. .
So far it looks good, just working on bedframe connector designs and should be ready to try it out this weekend. (and redesign again....)
Same with my stuff, feel free to incorporate any ideas, it can only make our machines better!
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Thu-15-Apr

One point not addressed yet is how to "Dial it in." I know my X and Y axis are not perfectly perpendicular. If I print a 80 x 80 square and measure the diagonals (before removing from the print bed) they are off about 1-2mm. I should take the time to shim under the Z bearings to bring it in, but that is a real a pain. Print part, take axis apart, install shim, re-install axis, print part, take axis apart...

The bigger the print, the more noticeable the error will be.

Can anybody think of any better way to add some some method to adjust the X axis with respect to the Y?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Thu-16-Apr

I am confused, don't we adjust the print bed to account for this?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Fri-01-Apr

Jon Lawrence wrote:One point not addressed yet is how to "Dial it in." I know my X and Y axis are not perfectly perpendicular. If I print a 80 x 80 square and measure the diagonals (before removing from the print bed) they are off about 1-2mm. I should take the time to shim under the Z bearings to bring it in, but that is a real a pain. Print part, take axis apart, install shim, re-install axis, print part, take axis apart...

The bigger the print, the more noticeable the error will be.

Can anybody think of any better way to add some some method to adjust the X axis with respect to the Y?


I think I understand what you are saying and I just went through the 3 copies of the base I test printed for mine and I don't seem to have this problem. The part measure 123mm squares on the base prints, all were off from their diagonal opposite by less than 0.5mm.(most just 0.2mm) Something that could be measured with different caliper pressure or print width differences.
My bed is 8.5x15 and my y only extends to 6 inches right now, but there's still about 5 inches out the back end acting like a counter weight. I also have the front and rear of my printer anchored so there is no printer swing or rocking, possibly helping with frame twist/flex as well?
The diagonal measurement like that is used in woodworking to make sure boxes and furniture are square (not pulled into a diamond) and flat. Only thing I could think could cause this to happen is if the bed was not squared to the head (or machine flexing/rocking more on one side?). If the bed bearing where causing it move at a slight angle? Extruder Arm rods at an angle/twist? Couldn't this last one cause symptom like you described?
I am still using your extended x and y mods, haven't started tests with the extended bed Y yet. Is this something I might run into with the bed ext that I haven't considered? Also, my parts where measured off the bed.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Fri-08-Apr

EddB wrote:The diagonal measurement like that is used in woodworking to make sure boxes and furniture are square (not pulled into a diamond) and flat.

Excellent description of the situation.

EddB wrote:Only thing I could think could cause this to happen is if the bed was not squared to the head (or machine flexing/rocking more on one side?). If the bed bearing where causing it move at a slight angle? Extruder Arm rods at an angle/twist? Couldn't this last one cause symptom like you described?

If the extruder arms were twisted that would cause the hot end to move in a helical (or arc) pattern instead of a straight line. Interesting possibility. Lets's see:

Problem - Prints coming out skewed (diagonal measurements of a square object are not equal).

Possible Causes:
    - X bearings and Y bearings are not at 90 degrees.
      - How to confirm: Unknown
      - How to correct: Shim under both Z bearings on a single rod to bring axes to 90 degrees.
    - Y (extruder) Rod arms twisted.
      - How to confirm: Lay on flat surface and inspect to ensure both arms are parallel to surface. (easier said than done)
        Possible causes of twist:
          - End blocks rotated
            - How to correct: Secure bearings to not allow rods to twist.
          - Y-Z plate warped
            - How to correct: Shim under diagonal Y bearings to make bearings lie in a single plane.

Sound logical?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Fri-09-Apr

You should try printing a test part with the x and y extended out as far as possible. My idea is that we are going to have to slow down printing at those distances because of deflection. If the part comes out at slow speed but is skewed when printed at high speed, we will have are answer.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Fri-09-Apr

You should try printing a test part with the x and y extended out as far as possible. My idea is that we are going to have to slow down printing at those distances because of deflection. If the part comes out at slow speed but is skewed when printed at high speed, we will have are answer.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Fri-10-Apr

greenb wrote:I am confused, don't we adjust the print bed to account for this?

The print bed height adjustment is to get the bed squared up to the Y axis rods, and the X axis rods. This adjustment does nothing to alter the relationship between the X, Y, & Z rods themselves. It is the relationship between the RODS that determines if a square part actually prints square.

For example, conceptually tweak your bed adjustment screws so your bed is no longer level. Print a square. The bottom section will be at an angle, but once you get above a certain height the square will print above the bed. At this point, the edges of the square will be inline with the linear rods, not the level of the bed. If your rods are not at 90 degrees, the part will not print at 90 degrees.

I am much better with drawing pictures with CAD than with words, so hopefully you can follow my convoluted description.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Fri-10-Apr

greenb wrote:You should try printing a test part with the x and y extended out as far as possible. My idea is that we are going to have to slow down printing at those distances because of deflection. If the part comes out at slow speed but is skewed when printed at high speed, we will have are answer.

At least in my case, print speed does not change the measurement of the diagonals. Surface quality, and precision definitely changes, but not the error between the axis.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Fri-11-Apr

Jon, your description was very insightful. When I was in high school, I did a great deal of milling on the Bridgeport. I remember doing tramming, which is a process of squaring the head of the milling machine to the table. But we were assuming that the x y and z axis are all square, which is what we cannot do in are case. I am going to see if I can come up with some kind of tool to help us because it is going to be a pain if we have to adjust everything with trial and error.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Fri-11-Apr

do you have a very low jerk setting then? the forces of acceleration on the y arm would cause some torque forces for sure. as well as stretching of the belts. but i believe you print very slowly due to you ability to check the printer?

we just need a way to mount a dial indicator to the head of the simple. with that and a block that could be repeatedly mounted in the perpendicular to the x edge of the bed, you could use the edge of the bed and just travel the x to check if the bearings on there are square, then mount the block and run it back and forth to check it's square. and the z is as simple as the y. you almost what to have a T shape that has a lip on one side that can hook onto the bed
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Fri-11-Apr

Jon Lawrence wrote:
EddB wrote:Only thing I could think could cause this to happen is if the bed was not squared to the head (or machine flexing/rocking more on one side?). If the bed bearing where causing it move at a slight angle? Extruder Arm rods at an angle/twist? Couldn't this last one cause symptom like you described?

If the extruder arms were twisted that would cause the hot end to move in a helical (or arc) pattern instead of a straight line. Interesting possibility. Lets's see:

Problem - Prints coming out skewed (diagonal measurements of a square object are not equal).

- Y (extruder) Rod arms twisted.
    - How to confirm: Lay on flat surface and inspect to ensure both arms are parallel to surface. (easier said than done)
      Possible causes of twist:
        - End blocks rotated
          - How to correct: Secure bearings to not allow rods to twist.

Sound logical?


Actually this might be easier to test for than you think. Old school! Use a plumb line (string with a weight hanging on it) extend your Y all the way out and tape the plumb line to the side of the top rod hanging the weight off the side and below the bottom Y rod. Then extend the Y out the rear and do the same to the back end of the Y rod. Test by moving your Y axis back and forth. Flip the strings over the other side and test the oposite sides of your Y. The string should line up against the bottom rod on both sides if they are in alignment. If one hangs away from the bottom rod, then there is a twist in the top rod in that direction.
Testing while moving will tell you if the Y-Z plate bearings can twist the rods.
One thing that could cause the problem also, Your Z axis rods/plate? I am using the tall tower that secures the rods at the top. If the are in alignment when it is still, doesn't mean it is when its moving. Shifting weight could easily cause the z rods to twist. If your prints have this error you are describing, is it worse at the top of tall prints?
Does it happen on small X axis prints? That may be a way to isolate it. Print a 10x80mm object along the bed's x axis and print another along the bed's Y axis. That might isolate the problem a little.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Fri-12-Apr

The setup I imagine would work the best is using a dial gauge and a 1-2-3 block.
Image

Image

The idea would be to clamp the dial somewhere near the hotend. You would would place the 1-2-3 block on the platform and move an axis. Assuming everything is set up right, we should be able to see how much each axis is off. We are going to have to find a creative way to mount the block to the platform to allow for repeatability but I think somebody will come up with a smart idea.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Fri-12-Apr

killbox wrote:do you have a very low jerk setting then? the forces of acceleration on the y arm would cause some torque forces for sure. as well as stretching of the belts. but i believe you print very slowly due to you ability to check the printer?

You are correct, I print relatively slow. My fast speed to slow speed would be like going from a turtle to a snail. Jerk setting not really an issue for me. Actually my print speed limitation has two parts. One is my available time, the other is at faster speeds I cannot seem to get reliable performance out of the Ubis. Have recently switched over to an E3D and love it so far, but that is a topic for a different thread.

killbox wrote:we just need a way to mount a dial indicator to the head of the simple. with that and a block that could be repeatedly mounted in the perpendicular to the x edge of the bed, you could use the edge of the bed and just travel the x to check if the bearings on there are square, then mount the block and run it back and forth to check it's square.

Excellent idea. I have a dial indicator, a couple clamps, and a square leftover from my woodworking days. May have to add wedges under the bed to keep the springs in check for measurements, but no big deal.

EddB wrote:Actually this might be easier to test for than you think. Old school! Use a plumb line (string with a weight hanging on it) extend your Y all the way out and tape the plumb line to the side of the top rod hanging the weight off the side and below the bottom Y rod. Then extend the Y out the rear and do the same to the back end of the Y rod. Test by moving your Y axis back and forth. Flip the strings over the other side and test the oposite sides of your Y. The string should line up against the bottom rod on both sides if they are in alignment. If one hangs away from the bottom rod, then there is a twist in the top rod in that direction.
Testing while moving will tell you if the Y-Z plate bearings can twist the rods.

It is hard to beat Old School! Out will come the plumb bob as well. I think it is still attached to my chalk line so I will have to dig up some clean string. Not sure why that thought got typed...

I will try to isolate my issues this evening so we can get back on subject.

This is why I love this community, a complex problem turns into a simple solution overnight!
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Some Printr Noob » 2014-Apr-Fri-13-Apr

Can you slice with Cura, and print with Repetier (showing his ignorance of other software)?


Yep. Once you dial in the machine settings, load up an object. Cura will auto-slice. Right click the "print over usb" button and click "save gcode". Then load the gcode up in repetier, check to see if it sliced correctly, and then hit orint.

The starting gcode is a bit different. The printhead won't move until the hotend heats up. I like to get into the home position, then run it so that all my filament doesn't ooze out.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby redwood » 2014-Apr-Fri-19-Apr

What about having a set of tracks or channels for the X axis to glide back and forth? This should take care of any sag concerns with a large span.

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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby evanalmighty » 2014-Apr-Fri-20-Apr

Those tracks are nice, but not the price. Anyhow I think I'm ready to go.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Fri-20-Apr

evanalmighty wrote:Those tracks are nice, but not the price. Anyhow I think I'm ready to go.

Yeah, there are plenty of linear rails available. The trick here is highest possible quality with lowest possible price.

Nice prints! Keep us posted on how they fit. I didn't allow any room for manufacturing tolerances, so they very well may need a little TLC.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Fri-20-Apr

I know a great deal of you are going to moan but what about drawer slides? A great number of people use them when they make homemade cnc machines.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby evanalmighty » 2014-Apr-Fri-21-Apr

I have thought about salvaging the slider mechanism in old inkjet printers. I could splurge on a nice setup from McMaster Carr, but it takes the fun out of trying to make due with printed parts.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Fri-21-Apr

I totally agree that having everything 3d printed is a fun challenge but is it possible? Even if everything is made from plastic, will it last over years of use? These are the questions I tend to ask myself because I want to push the limits of everything. It is like I have this compulsive urge to redesign everything.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby redwood » 2014-Apr-Fri-22-Apr

evanalmighty wrote:Those tracks are nice, but not the price.


Well, I was hoping someone would come up with a cheap solution :lol: Maybe some aluminum c channel?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Fri-22-Apr

I would totally try it if bearing will fit inside of it
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Fri-22-Apr

evanalmighty wrote:I have thought about salvaging the slider mechanism in old inkjet printers. I could splurge on a nice setup from McMaster Carr, but it takes the fun out of trying to make due with printed parts.


That's where the rods came from for this upgrade. I salvaged them from old printers. That may also be a solution for those that want to move the motor to the middle of the bed. I salvaged about 5 of these pancake 4-wire stepper motors from old laser printers. They are only 5/8" of an inch tall and ran the paper rollers in the laser. A lot more weight and stress than our simple beds (on the bed in picture). Easily shorter than the bearings if it was mounted under the printer!
The one that is still mounted to an 8mm rod with a belt and pully. That drove the printer heads/ink cartridges from an ink jet. That one could be mounted as-is under a printer bed and drive it. All salvaged from old printers.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Fri-23-Apr

Edited @1am: first print. Not the final tweaks. 230mm x 250mm printrbot simple bed trial: https://youtu.be/jknl5ULOzJw
And here is how it turned out. Just a small part without calibrating except for z height. Wish all my prints turned out this well.!
1397290394687.jpg

Going to bed!


Original message : About ready to start testing mine. Finally got it assembled and the bed frame worked better than I could imagine. Friction fit and it's tight as heck but I am still going to add screw holes to secure the aluminum railing in case it loosens in use.
I have a few minor tweaks I already need to update in the design, but wanted to show where it's at right now. The major thing I am hoping works is the bed frame. Not only do I want to use the full length of Jon's extended Y, but I want to be able to swap out bed top materials using just standard binder clips. The main one being the 9.5"x12.6" inch 3mm thick borosilicate glass.
One thing I didn't consider is I may have to extend some wires to allow the Y to extend without stressing them to their limits.
It would be nice if it works without problems, but we know that isn't going to happen! :D here's the pic: (ignore the clutter!)
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1397276457876.jpg

1397276608869.jpg

1397276690936.jpg
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Sat-10-Apr

Jon Lawrence can you stretch out the bearing support in your design to fit 6 11/16" on center rods?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby kungfuroy » 2014-Apr-Sun-23-Apr

great x projects.

I would suggest widening the base of the extension(legs) to help keeping the printer from tipping over.

Most have seen my monster x frame, driving the movement just on one side has not caused me any issues. I did separate the bearings on the outer rod further to counter the torquing issue.

I still print slow, that is a good amount of weight jumping back and forth.... but slow is worth the nice quality the prints have.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Mon-08-Apr

killbox wrote:Jon Lawrence can you stretch out the bearing support in your design to fit 6 11/16" on center rods?

Are you wanting 6-11/16" or 170mm? I know 0.005" difference, but what do you expect from an engineer?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Mon-08-Apr

So here is a 170mm Rod center version. This one has a rod clamp built in using M3x16mm screws and nuts to clamp the rod and not allow it to twist. Just drew it up this morning, so I have not tested anything yet.

RodEndClamp_170mm.STL

RodEndClamp_170mm-Mirror.STL

BearingExtension170mm.STL

ExtendXExpandBearingsRodClamp2014-04-14.JPG
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby evanalmighty » 2014-Apr-Mon-09-Apr

Here's my result with the mod. I printed out the very first one which is 125mm spacing between rods. The bolt holes didn't quite line up, but I pressed ahead with the zip ties anyway.
Image
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Mon-10-Apr

evanalmighty wrote:Here's my result with the mod. I printed out the very first one which is 125mm spacing between rods. The bolt holes didn't quite line up, but I pressed ahead with the zip ties anyway.

What do you mean they didn't quite line up, those aren't even in the ballpark! :D
Is this on your 2013 or 2014 Simple? Did the other fits come out OK?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby evanalmighty » 2014-Apr-Mon-10-Apr

Hi Jon this is 2014 simple. I didn't measure, but they look to be about 2-3mm off?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Mon-11-Apr

evanalmighty wrote:Hi Jon this is 2014 simple. I didn't measure, but they look to be about 2-3mm off?

Apparently there are some "unpublished" changes. I checked the dxf from both the 11/12/13 release and the 2013 V2 and they both show the screw slot almost lined up with the tie wrap slot. This is clearly not the same as in your picture.

Either you have a Special Edition One-Off "oops" type model, or I will need some assistance from the community to match reality to virtual reality since all the data I have shows the bolt in the wrong location. The easy fix is to just make the screw hole a slot in the model, but I don't care for slots unless absolutely necessary. I will check my 2013 this evening to see where the screw location falls.

Simple 11-12-13 Creative Commons.PNG

Simple_V23 - Creative Commons.PNG
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Mon-13-Apr

the 170 will do just fine. but i have the same holes as Evan. they are offset backwards from the ziptie hole about .130" or 1.404" center of hole, back from the front end of the plate.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Mon-14-Apr

killbox wrote:the 170 will do just fine. but i have the same holes as Evan. they are offset backwards from the ziptie hole about .130" or 1.404" center of hole, back from the front end of the plate.

Ok, 1.404" back from front edge of side plate to center of hole in various rod center lines:

BearingExtension125mm.STL

BearingExtension140mm.STL

BearingExtension170mm.STL
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Mon-22-Apr

Glad it's not just me! Been pulling hair trying to get stuff to fit. I built using my 2013 for the mockup, everything fits perfect. but when I tried moving to the 2014. seems there is a little shift in most areas. Almost like they redrew the base. On top of that, my hotend started dripping burnt filament. replaced the teflon twice on the nozzle. the leak is in the aluminum heat block or above. a real mess under the insulation sleeve that is pla/super glued to the hotend when cool. hoping to get a replacement before it gets too bad!
My new bed setup works perfect...for me....trouble is making sure others can use it!
Well, back to it....
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Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby danman78 » 2014-Apr-Tue-00-Apr

I was thinking that you could consider lifting the whole bot up to make room for the stock motor. I have mine lifted with the feet I modified: thing:299548 I don't have a way to modify the drawing of the bearing extension to show you what I mean so I made a really really ugly crude sketch

motor mount on legs.jpg

IMG_7170_preview_featured.jpg
IMG_7171_preview_featured.jpg
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby danman78 » 2014-Apr-Wed-22-Apr

I managed to crudely sketchup one idea... at the front is a mount for the raised legs I made... and at the back I put some extra holes so that the connection between the bot and the extension could be strengthened since it will be raised. Then I just tossed in the belt motor mount .. just to show what it would look like... I am not expert so I am hoping someone that knows how to model will "fix" this...

what do you think?

motor mount on legs2.jpg

Xincreasewith legs.skp
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Thu-09-Apr

Looks like an excellent method of communication. Picture = 1,000 words and all.
My preference is to not run timing belts on their side. Gravity pulls the belt down to the flange and on long spans out of alignment.
That being said, these motors are basically square, so there is no reason with a raised machine, the motor cannot be mounted horizontally. Simply move the motor down and keep the bearings up just under the print platform.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Thu-15-Apr

Jon Lawrence wrote:So here is a 170mm Rod center version. This one has a rod clamp built in using M3x16mm screws and nuts to clamp the rod and not allow it to twist. Just drew it up this morning, so I have not tested anything yet.


This is with my setup, so I don't know if it is a concern with your design. Just sharing my experience in case it would help. I was also running the printer faster than normal.
Finally tracked a print error to the rods loosening. My prints started out beautifully, but after a day or 2 of prints, the hole size and pockets of the prints would come out deformed. The zip-ties were holding the rods nice and tight, no play. Then I noticed a gap on the front rod on both ends. About 1/8th of an inch gap on the rod/arm ends. Zipties had to be cut, they were still holding. Replaced them on the re-positioned rod ends. Same thing happened again after a couple hours printing.
I slowed down my printer to see if I could print replacement parts by removing acceleration force on the belt side. Nope, Something will have to be done to prevent the bars slipping, just too much outside force caused by the belt tension/motion on the inside rod. (on my setup at least).
Not sure if clamped ends would work in this situation without being able to grab the rods (like screw threads locking the rods in place). A couple ideas I was thinking of (in a worse case scenario) are using a kevlar line as a tension line. Tensioning the rod arms together. The other idea, I have some spare threaded rod somewhere. Thinking one 3/16" thick piece across arm to arm, bolted on both sides where the old middle rod used to go. That might be over-kill, but would be very effective. Something along these lines.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Thu-15-Apr

EddB wrote:
Jon Lawrence wrote:So here is a 170mm Rod center version. This one has a rod clamp built in using M3x16mm screws and nuts to clamp the rod and not allow it to twist. Just drew it up this morning, so I have not tested anything yet.


This is with my setup, so I don't know if it is a concern with your design. Just sharing my experience in case it would help. I was also running the printer faster than normal.
Finally tracked a print error to the rods loosening. My prints started out beautifully, but after a day or 2 of prints, the hole size and pockets of the prints would come out deformed. The zip-ties were holding the rods nice and tight, no play. Then I noticed a gap on the front rod on both ends. About 1/8th of an inch gap on the rod/arm ends. Zipties had to be cut, they were still holding. Replaced them on the re-positioned rod ends. Same thing happened again after a couple hours printing.
I slowed down my printer to see if I could print replacement parts by removing acceleration force on the belt side. Nope, Something will have to be done to prevent the bars slipping, just too much outside force caused by the belt tension/motion on the inside rod. (on my setup at least).
Not sure if clamped ends would work in this situation without being able to grab the rods (like screw threads locking the rods in place). A couple ideas I was thinking of (in a worse case scenario) are using a kevlar line as a tension line. Tensioning the rod arms together. The other idea, I have some spare threaded rod somewhere. Thinking one 3/16" thick piece across arm to arm, bolted on both sides where the old middle rod used to go. That might be over-kill, but would be very effective. Something along these lines.

I think you are on the right path here. Early in the conception I was thinking about adding belt mounting locations on both sides of the end plates so an extra belt could be stretched to balance the drive belt tension. Success with the closer spaced rods indicated this was unnecessary. Apparently we should revisit the idea.

I like the kevlar line idea. You could simply use a couple eye bolts to tension a line on the opposite side. Or you could go crazy, add tension bolts on all 4 corners, then cross the lines diagonally to square everything up. Picture frame wire would work well, no need for kevlar.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Thu-20-Apr

i dun goofed. I ordered a cast alum bed for a PB+. i thought that it would be a thin-ish bit of cast alum. instead i got a 1/4 monster of cast alum with a milled out area for the heat bed and alternative mounting holes.

So i ask again that you modify your design to fit bed mounting holes 9 inches apart. this mite be pushing the weight you can move with belts. the bed is very heavy, but we must try, FOR SCIENCE
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby danman78 » 2014-Apr-Fri-00-Apr

I am thinking of ordering from these guys... I am in Fairbanks AK..so I dont have much to choose from.. for the bed Well I was going to post a link .. how can I upgrade my status to be able to post links? the site is cut2sizemetals they will custom cut a sheet of aluminum the right size.. I print cold right on metal .. after coating the surface with purple elmers glue stick.. No curling at all. I also do this on cold glass.. sometimes if the part does not have too much surface area I will do blue tape on metal or glass and then coat the tape.. never used heat.. but I accidentally purchased a role of ABS so I am getting a plate and modding a PS so that I can heat this new giant bed we are building. With the aluminum I am thinking that the bed mounted under the heater will radiate the heat to the larger size... it is an 8x8 bed.

??
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Fri-00-Apr

danman78 wrote:
how can I upgrade my status to be able to post links?


I think you have to make around 20 posts on the forum and then you can post links, It is annoying but we all had to do it so we understand.

danman78 wrote:
I print cold right on metal .. after coating the surface with purple elmers glue stick


wow, I am going to have to try this tomorrow after I finish assembling my printrbot
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby danman78 » 2014-Apr-Fri-03-Apr

wow, I am going to have to try this tomorrow after I finish assembling my printrbot


Just FYI this only works with PLA... still need heat for ABS. Blue tape on wood.. coated in purple glue stick works really well too if you have the original platform.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby evanalmighty » 2014-Apr-Fri-08-Apr

How big of a piece of aluminum do you need Dan? I have plenty
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby danman78 » 2014-Apr-Sun-01-Apr

evanalmighty wrote:How big of a piece of aluminum do you need Dan? I have plenty



That is Super Generous man.... 8.75in x 10.75in.. perhaps .25 or .20 in thick,,, If you have something like that I would love to try and figure out how to get a hold of it...
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby danman78 » 2014-Apr-Sun-01-Apr

You know; I was thinking that it might be cool if we set up a time and did like a Google Hangout for an hour or so some time so we can all talk 3D printers and share findings and such? Anyone interested??
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Sun-02-Apr

danman78 wrote:
You know; I was thinking that it might be cool if we set up a time and did like a Google Hangout for an hour or so some time so we can all talk 3D printers and share findings and such? Anyone interested??


This is a great idea, imagine what we could accomplish in an hour. Talking with others helps generate new ideas.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Sun-02-Apr

danman78 wrote:You know; I was thinking that it might be cool if we set up a time and did like a Google Hangout for an hour or so some time so we can all talk 3D printers and share findings and such? Anyone interested??


Another site I used for a couple years has a shout box to the right of their pages/forums. Basically it's a live chat line everybody uses. Site was robot builds related and the shout out box usually has people live 24-7 when they are working on their projects. You hit a snag, you can ask publicly and get instant feedback. It's a very nice feature and you don't need a set time. Just log on to read forums or leave it running while you tweak your printer or just printing and have conversations via chat while you work. Really useful feature. And the collaboration is incredibly helpful when people are advancing the same project!
But I don't think a set time would work, too many people from all over the world. Would be hard (impossible) to get everyone into it.

Back to the x bed extension. Jon, was looking at my spare pb parts. We have these little 6 inch 8mm rods after upgrading our x beds. I was thinking it could be incorporated into your build. Your new bearing plate extension, instead of having it stretched out through plastic. Might be very useful to use the rods between the new bearing mount and the wood body of the simple. Could even make it slide along the length of the small rodsfor a custom fit or to let the user decide the length of bed they need. Hard to implement without the same for the bed frame rod arms (adjustable bed length). Or just run them the length of the bed arms to give them strength against bending!
Think about them for a future build. I would really like to put them into a build instead of being scrapped.
Ed
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Sun-05-Apr

danman78 wrote:You know; I was thinking that it might be cool if we set up a time and did like a Google Hangout for an hour or so some time so we can all talk 3D printers and share findings and such? Anyone interested??

Great the idea in concept. In practice I agree with Ed it would be very difficult, but that does not mean impossible. For myself, a scheduled hour of "personal" time is extremely difficult to come by. I do my hobby whenever the opportunity presents itself, a little here and a little three.

EddB wrote: Back to the x bed extension. Jon, was looking at my spare pb parts. We have these little 6 inch 8mm rods after upgrading our x beds. I was thinking it could be incorporated into your build. Your new bearing plate extension, instead of having it stretched out through plastic. Might be very useful to use the rods between the new bearing mount and the wood body of the simple. Could even make it slide along the length of the small rodsfor a custom fit or to let the user decide the length of bed they need. Hard to implement without the same for the bed frame rod arms (adjustable bed length). Or just run them the length of the bed arms to give them strength against bending!
Think about them for a future build. I would really like to put them into a build instead of being scrapped.
Ed

This is a fantastic idea. I'm sure we all have spare shorter rods laying around, and may as well put them to good use. I have been concerned about the stability of the overhung bearing extension, and this would be a good solution. Can even take longer rods all the way under the bed to tie everything together.

Maybe the end pieces can be made from the spare rods. Just print 4 corner blocks?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby evanalmighty » 2014-Apr-Sun-07-Apr

I'll see if I can cut a piece this week Dan. Most likely it's be .125 thick if that's OK.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Sun-11-Apr

Jon Lawrence wrote: This is a fantastic idea. I'm sure we all have spare shorter rods laying around, and may as well put them to good use. I have been concerned about the stability of the overhung bearing extension, and this would be a good solution. Can even take longer rods all the way under the bed to tie everything together.

Maybe the end pieces can be made from the spare rods. Just print 4 corner blocks?


That is an excellent Idea as well. I know you were mentioned "frame flex" a while back. With all the glass beds, aluminum beds and heating elements (as well as added weight from all the new hardware) it might be a hard to locate problem for everyone. This could eliminate that problem as well!
It would be nice to see the systems improved with resources that otherwise would end up in the 'spare parts box.'
Ed
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby danman78 » 2014-Apr-Sun-11-Apr

EddB wrote: I would really like to put them into a build instead of being scrapped.
Ed


I think that is a great Idea.. Especially with what I am experiencing.. I used my feet version with the extension JON made.. and I have some bend in the part that is causing me to have to raise one side of the platform quite a bit to make it level. Other than than I am printing really well of to about 170mm out.. then I get start to get some wobble.. due to the length of the y...
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Mon-21-Apr

danman78 wrote:
EddB wrote: I would really like to put them into a build instead of being scrapped.
Ed


I think that is a great Idea.. Especially with what I am experiencing.. I used my feet version with the extension JON made.. and I have some bend in the part that is causing me to have to raise one side of the platform quite a bit to make it level. Other than than I am printing really well of to about 170mm out.. then I get start to get some wobble.. due to the length of the y...


Jon has witnessed some frame flex on his, right where the body is the thinnest, in front of the x motor mount. Even if you don't see it yourself, it is possible that with higher speeds the flex would increase and mmke it wobble or shake because of the flexing. At minimum, I would modify the design of the feet so you could place 2 more under the frame.
I prefer to bolt mine down to a 10"x24" x 1/4" piece of plywood along with my power supply, 2nd spool holder and ssr. Helps prevent wobble and easier to move if I have too.

Jon Lawrence wrote: I like the kevlar line idea. You could simply use a couple eye bolts to tension a line on the opposite side. Or you could go crazy, add tension bolts on all 4 corners, then cross the lines diagonally to square everything up. Picture frame wire would work well, no need for kevlar.


New version with 3x 406mm rods and screw mounts/orange kevlar running in front of the rod arms. It's like night and day. With the heavier but 2x taller springs, the fan shaped shaking on quick non-print moves and infills where really pronounced . Put the screw mounts on the front of the arms, tighten the screws till the kevlar makes a ping sound. So smooth and no more shaking on the bed.
This would probably work great on your 300mm Y mod. My top rod is loose in the front mount, so it work itself out of alignment. Using line like this could help keep it square and fixed into position. So simple and could be an optional step. Picture frame wire, kevlar line, fishing line, kite string..... Just about anything one has handy would work.
Ed
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Tue-14-Apr

EddB wrote:
Jon Lawrence wrote: This is a fantastic idea. I'm sure we all have spare shorter rods laying around, and may as well put them to good use. I have been concerned about the stability of the overhung bearing extension, and this would be a good solution. Can even take longer rods all the way under the bed to tie everything together.

Maybe the end pieces can be made from the spare rods. Just print 4 corner blocks?


That is an excellent Idea as well. I know you were mentioned "frame flex" a while back. With all the glass beds, aluminum beds and heating elements (as well as added weight from all the new hardware) it might be a hard to locate problem for everyone. This could eliminate that problem as well!
It would be nice to see the systems improved with resources that otherwise would end up in the 'spare parts box.'
Ed

So I ran with using the rods for added support and came up with the attached versions. There are pockets to insert rods that would sit up under the existing bed, against the outer wall. I don't have supports for the back end of the rods at this point, but they will prevent the extension from sagging as is.

These are a work in progress, and you will notice there are cutouts for some small switches (Cherry PRK22J5DBBNN - Digikey CH865-ND $1.17 ea). I am planning on moving my main power and fan switches up front. I have not had a chance to print, and have no idea if the switches will fit. I would pull the switch pockets out of the model, but quite frankly I just don't feel like it and somebody may find them useful. :D

BearingExtensionSwitch-100mm_2014-04-22.STL

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BearingExtensionSwitch-140mm_2014-04-22.STL

BearingExtensionSwitch-170mm_2014-04-22.STL
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Tue-19-Apr

So i'm trying to print out a one side of my extension, but Slic3r doesn't like my model and cura is a POS. I've run my model though netfabb and when i export it, it says its fine but slic3r won't generate most of it and the deep analyses on rep host is highlighting most of the bottom of the model but the i don't know what's broken when i pull it up in netfabb. if someone could take a look at the file and find something i missed i'd be greatful

9inchext (repaired) (repaired) (repaired).stl
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Tue-20-Apr

killbox wrote:So i'm trying to print out a one side of my extension, but Slic3r doesn't like my model and cura is a POS. I've run my model though netfabb and when i export it, it says its fine but slic3r won't generate most of it and the deep analyses on rep host is highlighting most of the bottom of the model but the i don't know what's broken when i pull it up in netfabb. if someone could take a look at the file and find something i missed i'd be greatful

9inchext (repaired) (repaired) (repaired).stl

Looks like there is something screwy going on with the top of the bed leveling hole on the belt tension side. It has been closed off by a single surface.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Tue-20-Apr

I found the problem. instead of hand stitching the stretched parts i used a pull on my software and it didn't join the part nicely
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Tue-20-Apr

EddB wrote:New version with 3x 406mm rods and screw mounts/orange kevlar running in front of the rod arms. It's like night and day. With the heavier but 2x taller springs, the fan shaped shaking on quick non-print moves and infills where really pronounced . Put the screw mounts on the front of the arms, tighten the screws till the kevlar makes a ping sound. So smooth and no more shaking on the bed.

Looks great!
Were you able to run with and without the middle rod after the string tension addition? Just curious if the extra center bearings made the difference or if it was the "counter-tension" string.

Side note: What speeds are you running on the setup? I have made the jump up to light speed (for me at least), up from 15mm/s to 50 & 75mm/s. I have to limit my Y axis to 50mm/s because I have some O1 rods that are a bit oversize so the extra friction causes me to loose steps at faster speeds. But in any case the new hot end is working out well.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Wed-02-Apr

Jon Lawrence wrote:Were you able to run with and without the middle rod after the string tension addition? Just curious if the extra center bearings made the difference or if it was the "counter-tension" string.

Side note: What speeds are you running on the setup? I have made the jump up to light speed (for me at least), up from 15mm/s to 50 & 75mm/s. I have to limit my Y axis to 50mm/s because I have some O1 rods that are a bit oversize so the extra friction causes me to loose steps at faster speeds. But in any case the new hot end is working out well.


It's hard to say. To test without the center rod, I would have to take it back down. Not ready for that yet.
I just ran a small test piece with and without the kevlar tension line. I notice a lot less jerky motion when it switches left to right. But the prints themselves are almost identical.(left with tension line is a little sharper) They are tight 0.2mm layer height, 1 perimeter lines. Print speed is 55mm/s with infill running at 40mm/s, non print moves are @ 130mm/s.
These larger pieces in the back printed 5.5 hours today and came out beautiful. They were printed at 40mm/s, non print @ 100mm/s. A lot smoother and some of the best quality. But was using the line and extra rod. I'm sure the middle rod helped with the windshield wiper effect, but it just looks tighter and more controlled with the line. The outer rod was working it's way out of the zipties with the prior setup. It doesn't seem like it could happen with the tension line installed. (can you guess who is making new nozzles tomorrow? :-)) edited... Actually have video of that large one running posted. http://youtu.be/26CXqsyhtsY
Real nice running at 45mm with 100mm non print moves, but could handle the higher speed.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby danman78 » 2014-Apr-Thu-00-Apr

Just an observation... we seem to have lost quite a bit of buildable area on the x axis with the change from the first model x axis upgrade to the deeper one.. Any way we can get that back? I think it is from mounting the bearing rods further in?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby danman78 » 2014-Apr-Thu-02-Apr

I just noticed that you how you have the string attached for stability EddB. I am not having an issue with that . I am using the version of the end plates that used the screws to tighten the rods.. they work really great.. there is no twist or loosening at all going on. I really hope JON keeps that in all future versions..
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Thu-11-Apr

danman78 wrote:Just an observation... we seem to have lost quite a bit of buildable area on the x axis with the change from the first model x axis upgrade to the deeper one.. Any way we can get that back? I think it is from mounting the bearing rods further in?

Yes, there is about 46mm MORE "dead space" in the new design. This is one of those nasty trade off's to increase stability of the bed. By separating the bearings we can gain a much longer stable X axis than we could by keeping them right next to each other. Unfortunately, everything comes at a cost...

EDIT: I can only speak for my design. Not sure exactly how much difference there is on EddB's design, but it appears to be close to the same.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Thu-11-Apr

danman78 wrote:I just noticed that you how you have the string attached for stability EddB. I am not having an issue with that . I am using the version of the end plates that used the screws to tighten the rods.. they work really great.. there is no twist or loosening at all going on. I really hope JON keeps that in all future versions..

I do plan to keep the clamp feature on all new designs, but I ALSO plan to add some sort of counter-tension capability as well like EddB has done.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby EddB » 2014-Apr-Thu-16-Apr

Jon Lawrence wrote:
danman78 wrote:Just an observation... we seem to have lost quite a bit of buildable area on the x axis with the change from the first model x axis upgrade to the deeper one.. Any way we can get that back? I think it is from mounting the bearing rods further in?

Yes, there is about 46mm MORE "dead space" in the new design. This is one of those nasty trade off's to increase stability of the bed. By separating the bearings we can gain a much longer stable X axis than we could by keeping them right next to each other. Unfortunately, everything comes at a cost...

EDIT: I can only speak for my design. Not sure exactly how much difference there is on EddB's design, but it appears to be close to the same.


Mine is almost exactly the same. I think we had reached the limit for the x axis and this is a necessary adjustment. By separating the bearings it made it more stable which not only allowed the Y bed extension, but you could probably go even longer on the X axis without the print quality suffering. Basically it's minor decrease in range ofmotion for a large gain in stability

Jon Lawrence wrote:
danman78 wrote:I just noticed that you how you have the string attached for stability EddB. I am not having an issue with that . I am using the version of the end plates that used the screws to tighten the rods.. they work really great.. there is no twist or loosening at all going on. I really hope JON keeps that in all future versions..

I do plan to keep the clamp feature on all new designs, but I ALSO plan to add some sort of counter-tension capability as well like EddB has done.


The design could work well for you, but with different settings, different hardware, future mods or even general 'wear and tear', it could create problems as well.
An example is the sanding tube and fishing line drive we all used. It works initially and probably for people that print a couple hours a month, but for most people that chose it as a hobby.. It is not a viable solution. We had to explore other options.
If Jon's current mod works for you, then I would leave it the way it is. No reason to change at all. (his designs are amazing!) That's the real nice thing about open source/Printrbot, you can build it into the best design that works for you!
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby danman78 » 2014-Apr-Fri-20-Apr

When I posted about the lost print area.. I mostly was not thinking LOL. .. once I pulled the paper off my plexiglass and "re-realized" that the bearing were seperated on the upgrade.... DUH.. out of sight out of mind. I just compared my last build platform and starting scratching my head. JON I just printed your latest X extension with the rod inserts.. it looks beautiful, I love your design work .. Like I said before I would love to learn this stuff.. ... I had modded your last one with extensions for my lift; I have to say I really like my bot lifted... but it created some real sag and wobble between the bot and the addon. I had to brace it in the middle and still adjust the leveling screw way higher in the black to level the build surface. Now I am going to try this without my lift just on the table with the rods added. Although I think the added rods would help add that stiffness to my added lift. I will probably add the feet back ... they do seem to reduce some vibration but .. in this case they are making it worse. Also I am getting most of my vibration now from the Z axis rods. With the XL upgrade I was able to clamp the highrise to my desk and secure it pretty well.. and this has me thinking about adding some sort of extra stabilization to the z axis rods. If it is bad for us with the XL holding them at the top I can only imagine that it is impacting those without it all the more.

On another note... if anyone is interested in doing a Google hangout I would like to get a list of times that would make sense.. I may end up just hosting one while I am fiddling around just to see if anyone randomly joins....???
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby danman78 » 2014-Apr-Sun-16-Apr

Video of my printer in action....

http://youtu.be/GWs9fT35Zt4
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby evanalmighty » 2014-Apr-Sun-17-Apr

Don't forget to pm me your address for that aluminum plate Dan.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Tue-22-Apr

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:300249

Image
Image
Image

I thought this was an interesting GT2 belt drive for the X-axis. Jon, how does this compare to your "Double Precision MXL X-Axis, Printrbot Simple V2" mod? It seems weird to me that somebody would redesign the entire thing
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Wed-09-Apr

i don't really understand the use for the extra bearings. Anyone know if that would be useful?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Wed-12-Apr

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:201009
Image
Image

If you look at the image above, you will notice 2 bearings on the ends and 2 bearings by the pulley. This mod seems to work very well, I was hoping to get some feedback from Jon. It might be a good idea to incorporate this mod with Jon's "Printrbot Simple X upgrade" mod.
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-Apr-Wed-13-Apr

greenb wrote:If you look at the image above, you will notice 2 bearings on the ends and 2 bearings by the pulley. This mod seems to work very well, I was hoping to get some feedback from Jon. It might be a good idea to incorporate this mod with Jon's "Printrbot Simple X upgrade" mod.

Sure, I will weigh in..

By changing the drive to this type you will gain some mechanical advantage. The up side, you will cut the required driving force by 1/2 and double your precision, but double the output speed of the motor. If you originally had 80 steps/mm and then added the bearing to the bed and fixed the belt on the frame, your new calibration would be 160 steps/mm. The trad-off is maximum speed.

I am currently trying to determine the true maximum micro-steps/sec of the Printrboard. RetireeJay mentioned it may be somewhere around 10,000 microsteps/sec. If this is true, than your maximum speed would be 62mm/s before the Printrboard becomes unstable. Also worth noting, is stepper motors are most accurate at slow speeds. When you try to run them in their upper operating speed range, the available torque drops off, and they are sensitive to higher currents saturating the poles and not being able to switch states effectively.

You had mentioned in another thread viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5721#p45877 the Marlin 40kHz step frequency, which would be 40,000 microsteps/sec? Is this the limit of the software or the step driver on the Printrboard? Per channel, or total for all simultaneous motions? Maybe you could elaborate on what you feel is the true stable maximum microsteps/sec per channel on the Printrboard?
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby greenb » 2014-Apr-Wed-14-Apr

I noticed that Marlin firmware is every close to the RepRap Teacup firmware, however, the Teacup firmware performs much better. They both have a MAX_STEP_RATE config of 40,000 steps per second but this is cut down in the Marlin firmware to 10,000 steps per second by interrupting 1, 2 or 4 theoretical steps between each actual step. I also noticed that the accel_clock was causing the interrupt because the firmware is calculating the acceleration after each step. Some people on the forum below noticed that the acceleration measurement at a 500 step interval was just as accurate as the single step interval. This is how the Teacup firmware is able to have a much higher step rate. I am trying to see if I can use this change in the Teacup firmware and apply it to the Marlin firmware.


http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?147,33082,page=47
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby killbox » 2014-Apr-Wed-17-Apr

ok, so i've been fighting with my design long enough, if some could please make a extension that can fit the Printrbot+ alum bed with the cables running out the printrborad side i would be very grateful. not matter what i do things just don't fit/line up and i'm tired of fighting with it. i'm sure you can find a model of the plus online but my measurements of the holes for the mounting hardware for the bed are 7 1/8" x 8 7/8". if anyone could help me out i would be grateful
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Re: Simple X Bed Depth Increase

Postby zero10 » 2014-May-Thu-08-May

This has been a very interesting thread, thanks so much for all of the ideas and contributions here!

I am trying to fit a 6"x12" aluminum bed that I made to my 2013 direct drive wooden extruder printrbot simple. I drilled the bed for the stock mounting hole spacing (approximately 103.5mm on center) and had planned on using the first iteration of Jon's X axis extension but the idea of increasing rod and bearing spacing really appeals to me. Unfortunately I'm getting a little bit lost in how these new parts are specified and which parts I really need, mostly I'm confused by the rod spacing and what end brackets are required, as well as what the maximum bed width is for each.

Are there any parts in this thread that can be used with a 6"x12" bed? I can drill some extra mounting holes on my bed if necessary, and I really like the idea of printing a plate to bring the bearings out in front of the printer. I have already done Jon's Y axis extension (although it is the older one without the screws to stop the rods from twisting) so I have around 155mm of Y depth available to me for printing, and I have 2 pieces of 8mm rod about 700mm in length available (should be plenty left to cut down for my 12" desired X travel)
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