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Printrbot Talk Forum • View topic - Perimeter settings for thin walls

Perimeter settings for thin walls

Talk about using software tools, drivers etc

Perimeter settings for thin walls

Postby MileHigh3DII » 2013-Sep-Mon-23-Sep

I was surprised that I couldn't find a topic on this. I'm using a PB+V2 with updated Repetier running 10b (Ithink) Slic3r. I'm trying to print thin walls- from under 1mm to 2.5 mm and I'm confused as to how Slic3r decides how to do things.

I mainly have been looking at the g code visualizer to help understand what slicer is doing as I change settings. The biggest thing I see is that it is trying to print perimeters and then sometime do infill- and it looks spotty?

This isn't so much a printing issue- The machine prints larger objects pretty well, really happy with it. It is finer featured things that are giving me fits.

I've played with layer settings- and I see that the extrusion widths change as the layer height changes- I can understand that with 'squish and stuff--- but what I don't get is how you can then go and change the the extrusion widths? Does it just feed more filament to get more 'squish'?

What settings should I use for perimeters?

-Does it vary by the thickness of the wall I want?
-Should the wall thickness be a multiple of the extrusion width?
-How many perimeters?
-What is the max extrusion thickness?
-What effect does the 'vase' setting have? I just tried one and it made a nice tube I was testing. Lots more 'layers'!!

I got some nice looking parts by telling it to print thin 1mm walls with extrusions 1mm wide- which I know is wider than the nozzle.

I'm just printing off 10-12mm tubes with 1mm thick walls running different settings on slicer to see what prints out.

What is the finest features you can make with a .4 nozzle???
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Perimeter settings for thin walls

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Re: Perimeter settings for thin walls

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Sep-Tue-09-Sep

I have some similar questions.

I assume that wall thickness should be a multiple of the extrusion width.

The number of perimeters you use (hence the wall thickness) depends on how strong you want the object.

The vase setting makes the object hollow and gives it walls of only one layer thickness. The neat thing about it is that it gradually raises Z while going around the object so there's not a "seam" where the Z height suddenly changes like in normal printing.

I like Slic3r for the huge number of options it offers - but sometimes it doesn't seem to do what I want. Here's an example. I'm trying to print a replacement part for a plastic retainer; it has a kind of "latch" or "tang" that's supposed to catch on another structure, and it needs to be strong. Even though I specified infill of 100%, Slic3r made it hollow. KISSlicer filled it in the way it should be.

Retainer Clip - Slic3r version.JPGRetainer Clip - KISSlicer version.JPG
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Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
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Re: Perimeter settings for thin walls

Postby MileHigh3DII » 2013-Sep-Tue-22-Sep

(Hmm, i posted a reply from my ipad, but it didn't take??)

I feel better that it vexes you!

I used the vase setting and I was getting multi-walled vases? Definitely 2 walls, I think one gave me three. All these were 1mm walled 12ish mm about 50mm tall. Interestingly, I still got a ridge on one. These are actually tubes for pen kits that are usually turned on a lathe. I suck with non controlled tools worse than I do with 3-axis machines ;)

the walls end up about 1mm, so I thought it would be a good test. One STL file and lots of different out puts. The three wall one was vase mode 1mm wall with 0.7mm wide extrusions and I think it did do 0.7 times three since the tube is 2.2ish mm.

At 1mm perimiter in vase mode with 1mm thick walls it did put down one pass thickness walls, but I mic them at 0.7ish. So if i asked for 1.0 and get 0.7 I thought I'd ask for 0.7 and two of those would be around 1.0 . Instead when I asked for 0.7, it seems to have given me 0.7- but with three strands to get me the 2.0+.

Slic3r seems like a black box you drop STL files into and things drop out of the bottom to print- but the results are 'non-linear' in the sense that they don't seem predictable.

PS, the one 'layer' 1mm walled tube is a thing of beauty. It literally weighs nothing.

Could you do statues this way? Then you could just shave off the base and add the material you wanted to make and then peel off the 3d printed layer....

11343 'layers' in my tube 60mm tall.

I'm printing one now and it does make a double wall. THe ridge in mine is where the crossover from inside to outside is.

So much less messy that using a lathe on a piece of acetate or wood. My grandfather gave me the wood working tools, including a hand saw from HIS grandfather. And I use a 3D printer...
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Re: Perimeter settings for thin walls

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Sep-Wed-10-Sep

I ended up redesigning the part slightly - giving the sharp corner a small radius and slightly tweaking here and there.

Still, looking at the visual display in Repetier, the KISSlicer model looked better filled in than the Slic3r model. But when I actually printed the object, the Slic3r print was in fact filled in perfectly and its dimensions corresponded better to my design than the KISSlicer version. This was a replacement part that needed to have VERY precise dimensions, as well as being completely filled in and very strong. It's a cord retainer for a hedge cutter, where the original retainer never worked very well and finally broke.

So the bottom line was, don't completely rely on the display in Repetier; try an actual print from time to time. Slic3r does do a good job and I now prefer it to KISSlicer because it has many more options and prints made with it seem cleaner, more accurate, and stronger than KISSlicer ones.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
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Re: Perimeter settings for thin walls

Postby rho-wan » 2013-Sep-Wed-11-Sep

How do you correct sizes when you need very accurate parts? I noticed the external sizes are about 0.5-1 nozzle diameters wider and the internal holes (in general) about the opposite. Is it normal, does Slic3r considers the middle point for the calculations, ignoring that the filament extrudes (and differently according to layer height)?
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Re: Perimeter settings for thin walls

Postby MileHigh3DII » 2013-Sep-Wed-13-Sep

The amazing thing to me is that with the same STL file, with different settings on the Slic3r I can get a +/- of almost 40% material needed for the part. The 'triple' walled print was WAY over done. The same STL file sliced differently and used about 30% less material. After a while of printing a few of the same tube, I started to get a feel for how much material it should take and tweaking settings for there and rejecting set ups that the material needed projection was too high.

To me, anything less than 2-3mm needs to be really carefully sliced. Above that it seems to be pretty reliable.

I know a lot of the variablility is me since I haven't really modded my system in the past couple of months- but I'm getting much better prints thanks to all the insights from this forum.
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Re: Perimeter settings for thin walls

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Sep-Wed-13-Sep

Perhaps this post will help: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=4528#p29596

Slic3r does take the width of the extruded material into account. However, for internal circular openings there is a mechanism that tends to make the ID too small, and it is not perfectly compensated. I'm sure it would vary by material, your extrusion temperature, and a number of other factors. The only solution I know is to increase the diameter of your holes in your design.

I get my best results if I have a very accurate measurement of filament diameter, a very accurate setting of extruder steps per millimeter, and I let Slic3r calculate the extruded width automatically. (It may tell you for example that with a nozzle of 0.4mm and layer height of 0.3mm that the layer width is 0.42mm - but in fact the value that it uses for the tool path is calculated to several more decimal places.)

Then, once you have filament diameter, extruder calibration as accurate as you can make them, go ahead and print some rectangular boxes and measure the results. I found that I could get the best accuracy by slightly tweaking my X and Y calibration and slightly tweaking the "Extrusion Multiplier." You need both adjustments in order to get both the outside dimensions and the inside dimensions correct at the same time.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
User avatar
RetireeJay
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