Cooling fan unpredictable "control" [SOLVED]

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Cooling fan unpredictable "control" [SOLVED]

Postby RetireeJay » 2015-Jan-Tue-15-Jan

I'm running the Unified V2 firmware on a standard Printrboard Rev D. I have a cooling fan wired to the standard fan controlled output. Perhaps I've been overlooking this problem in the past, or maybe it's a new problem, but today my fan has been changing speed somewhat randomly - even down to zero speed! This is in spite of the fact that the G-Code has NO M106 or M107 commands in it (except for the shutdown M107 upon completion of the print). The fan speed display in Repetier doesn't change. I think it's a firmware / software problem because I can click the fan off and back on again in Repetier and the fan restarts. So far, I've been unable to determine exactly what sequence of actions causes this to happen (it's not happening right now on the print currently running).

Any ideas?

(By the way, what's the magic keystroke that will let you navigate to "tabs" that are not visible on-screen in the Arduino IDE?)
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Cooling fan unpredictable "control" [SOLVED]

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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control"

Postby mechanizedmedic » 2015-Jan-Wed-21-Jan

Tried a different fan?... A few years back I had a fan on my PC do this before it gave up its ghost.
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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control"

Postby RetireeJay » 2015-Jan-Sat-20-Jan

Strangely, when I tell the fan to stop & start using the button in the Repetier Graphical User Interface, it's unreliable and unpredictable. But if I issue an M106 command from the command-line interface, it works. The fan stays on for the duration of the print.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control"

Postby ei8htohms » 2015-Feb-Sun-09-Feb

No clue about the weird fan behavior, but switching between tabs in Arduino IDE is done with Ctrl+Alt+[left or right arrow].
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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control"

Postby wd5gnr » 2015-Feb-Sun-10-Feb

Can you pull the fan cable and test it with everything else off? It almost sounds like maybe a stepper motor drive or heater output is getting into the fan. That doesn't explain the manual button though.... Hmm... Still might give you some more data if you could drive it separate and verify it works.
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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control"

Postby Mooselake » 2015-Feb-Mon-13-Feb

Just for grins, have you tried a scope on the fan drive and verified it looks OK?

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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control"

Postby RetireeJay » 2015-Feb-Mon-14-Feb

It would be nice to have a scope... Got a spare one lying around? :)

As you know, the board on a Plus is buried underneath the base, so it's utterly impossible to go poking about under there while a print is running. I suppose I could build a Y jumper for the fan wires to get access right next to the hot end, giving me access for my Fluke meter.

Actually, I keep on thinking that maybe it's fixed, so I keep on running (different) prints. I'm really working hard right now at finding a combination of temperature, trace width, layer height, retraction, extra distance after retraction, etc. that will give me clean prints in nylon on a fairly difficult part.

But the fan problem is really strange. When the carriage is moving in the +Y direction and then goes around a corner to move in the +X direction, the fan turns off. It turns on again when the opposite happens. So I think I will re-flash my firmware. I wish I had documented better; I've got several hex files floating around, and not all of them are well enough labeled.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control"

Postby RetireeJay » 2015-Feb-Mon-16-Feb

Aaargh. Re-flashed the firmware and no difference in fan behavior.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control"

Postby Mooselake » 2015-Feb-Mon-19-Feb

I figured you'd have one sitting around. I have 3. A Dumont OBL-1 "Cathode Ray Oscillograph" that I bought used as a kid in the 60s (came with both normal and long persistance CRTs), and an HP 180A that a former employer surplussed in the late 70s or so. Neither has been powered up in about 30 years (about the time the kids started falling off the turnip truck and ending up here) and will need at least all new electrolytics by now. Got a service manual on CD for the HP a couple years ago, so there's some progress.

I also have a Rigol DS1052E (bought with several years of saved pocket change), which I use, but as much as I'd like to... Drop by and we can check out your board.

Did you ever try a spare fan, just plugged into the connector? They don't seem to last vary long. I've been through several in the last couple years.

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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control"

Postby thawkins » 2015-Feb-Mon-19-Feb

Mooselake wrote:I figured you'd have several scopes. I have 3. A Dumont OBL-1 "Cathode Ray Oscillograph" that I bought used as a kid in the 60s (came with both normal and long persistance CRT), and an HP 180A that a former employer surplussed in the late 70s or so. Neither has been powered up in about 30 years (about the time the kids started falling off the turnip truck and ending up here) and will at the least need all new electrolytics. Got a service manual on CD for the HP a couple years ago, so there's some progress.

I also have a Rigol DS1052E, which I use, but as much as I'd like to... Drop by and we can check out your board.

Kirk


I have the Rigol too, there is apparently a hack that doubles the bandwidth, ie just removes the internal firmware hack that prevents it from being the next model up. It seems that the hardware on the scopes is the same, but rigol lockout some of the higher spec features with the firmware.
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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control" [SOLVED]

Postby RetireeJay » 2015-Feb-Mon-21-Feb

Well, well, well. With power off and the fan unplugged, I put an ohmmeter on the leads coming from the Printrboard and pushed the carriage around a little. Sure enough, the wire has a break in it right where it gets flexed the most. Why am I not surprised. I was repairing the wires for calculator chargers back in the old days before personal computers, and invariably the break was where the user forced a 90 degree sharp bend in the wire to wrap it around the brick when not in use.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control" [SOLVED]

Postby Mooselake » 2015-Feb-Tue-08-Feb

Darn intermittents!

Tim, there's a lengthy discussion of the scope firmware "hack" on eevblog. There are some differences in the scope's analog front end between the two speed versions, and iirc varying results at the high end. The later firmware was updated to make it harder to speed up the cheaper model. I've never tried, since 50 MHz was good enough for me.

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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control" [SOLVED]

Postby wd5gnr » 2015-Feb-Tue-11-Feb

RJ you should have known since you found my broken wire a few weeks ago on my E motor! ;-)

I have the Rigol too and the 100MHz hack did work. I think they did tighten it up but I also think you can downgrade and update still. I really enjoy it. If you buy in the US it costs a little more but the service is good. I had an encoder go bad but didn't want to send it back (primarily because I had hacked it) and they were nice enough to send me out an entire encoder board. In the interim, I replaced the encoder myself but I filed the board away for a future repair.
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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control" [SOLVED]

Postby RetireeJay » 2015-Feb-Wed-10-Feb

Given all the difficulties that people have had with the MOSFET that controls the fan, I find it rather amazing that I have effectively broken the connection to the fan while running, and restored the connection literally hundreds of times and apparently not fried the MOSFET.

I'm printing out Jon Lawrence's cable chain to avoid having tight-radius repetitive bending in the future. Of course, I will need to design anchors specific to my Plus instead of the Simple.

Meanwhile, thanks to WD5GNR and Mooselake for turning me on to Rigol oscilloscopes. I just ordered a refurbished unit from them for under $200 including shipping! That's like two orders of magnitude cheaper than digital scopes back in the day - and the Rigol has pretty good reviews! (No, I won't try to make the 50MHz scope into a 100MHz one; there is no need to take ANY risk of bricking the thing. I really had to wrestle with myself to justify getting one at all because I don't really do electronics development any more.)
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control" [SOLVED]

Postby Mooselake » 2015-Feb-Wed-11-Feb

I almost wish I needed another scope, that's a great deal. It took a long time to get the pocket change jar full enough for my $400 new version. It's cheating to just throw rolls of coins into it...

A long time ago, PB's then DFM engineer had a long, and at times heated, discussion about the relative merits of rolling vs tick-tock cable movement, complete with references. It's long been neglected on my mental project list - although I even have a couple meters of commercial cable chain sitting around for the 3D router's perpetually put off rewire job.

Don't forget to share the results :)

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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control" [SOLVED]

Postby JPepper » 2015-Feb-Fri-07-Feb

Most likely a connection @ a plug, or broken wire. Unpredictable and certain moves you stated is a clue.
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Re: Cooling fan unpredictable "control" [SOLVED]

Postby JPepper » 2015-Feb-Fri-07-Feb

Sorry, I just noticed the [SOLVED] part of the post.
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