Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

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Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby mattvl » 2016-Nov-Tue-19-Nov

I just replaced my Metal Plus printrboard with another Rev F board due to the extruder motor having clicking issues. I had switched motor connections on the board, etc, so it definitely wasn't the motor. Anyways, I just hooked up the new board and now all of my motors are acting strangely. Whenever I try to get them to move across any axis, they may move smoothly for an inch or two, but then they either stop and make a high pitched sound, move very slowly and make a low jerking sound, or move slowly in small even steps. Any ideas?

BTW, I tried sliding the bed and extruder carriage around by hand when everything was powered down and there don't appear to be any physical hangups. I also played around with the motor currents, to no avail.
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Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Nov-Tue-21-Nov

Extruder motor clicking almost certainly means that the motor is unable to push (or pull) the filament due to excessive resistance. The most common cause is a clog in your hot end or nozzle, but there are other possibilities such as trying to print too fast for the particular plastic you are using combined with the particular nozzle temperature. Sometimes you can free up the flow by increasing the temperature a bit, but some plastics just have a built-in maximum extrusion rate and that's that. Rarely, you might have a tangle, or some other blockage affecting the free flow of filament from your source spool to the extruder. Any of these three things (clog, speed, source drag) can overcome the available torque on the extruder drive motor. If you are convinced that all those conditions are good, then increase the drive current to the motor. But remember that this will make the motor run hotter, and that in turn means that the filament is going to be exposed to a higher temperature at the drive gear, which softens the filament and makes it more likely to kink instead of going smoothly down the hole.

As far as getting your new board up and running, try copying the log file readout you get from issuing an M502 command. This will tell us what's in the EEPROM, which may give us some clues as to what's out of spec. Also, make sure that your motor connectors are firmly pressed onto the board's headers; your symptoms sound a bit like they might not be making good contact.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby mattvl » 2016-Nov-Wed-19-Nov

Old board: I checked all of those. When I switched the extruder motor to a different port it worked fine, so I'm assuming it was the board.

New board:
M501 results:
> M501
< echo:Stored settings retrieved
< echo:Steps per unit:
< echo: M92 X80.00 Y80.00 Z2020.00 E96.00
< echo:Maximum feedrates (mm/s):
< echo: M203 X125.00 Y125.00 Z5.00 E14.00
< echo:Maximum Acceleration (mm/s2):
< echo: M201 X2000 Y2000 Z30 E10000
< echo:Acceleration: S=acceleration, T=retract acceleration
< echo: M204 S3000.00 T3000.00
< echo:Advanced variables: S=Min feedrate (mm/s), T=Min travel feedrate (mm/s), B=minimum segment time (ms), X=maximum XY jerk (mm/s), Z=maximum Z jerk (mm/s), E=maximum E jerk (mm/s)
< echo: M205 S0.00 T0.00 B20000 X20.00 Z0.40 E5.00
< echo:Home offset (mm):
< echo: M206 X0.00 Y0.00 Z0.00
< echo:PID settings:
< echo: M301 P22.20 I1.08 D114.00
< echo:Min position (mm):
< echo: M210 X0.00 Y0.00 Z0.00
< echo:Max position (mm):
< echo: M211 X152.00 Y152.00 Z152.00
< echo:Bed probe offset (mm):
< echo: M212 X20.00 Y0.00 Z0.00

M502 results:
> M502
< echo:Hardcoded Default Settings Loaded

Here is a quick video of the symptoms. It's dark, but you can hear the sounds it makes when it stops.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8zZ9 ... ktONU1xbVE
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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Nov-Wed-23-Nov

I don't see anything out of the ordinary in the EEPROM dump.

Do you have any motor that is acting normally? Maybe you can swap things around to determine if you have bad motor control channels on your new board. But also, be very suspicious of loose connectors at the board, or wires that may have developed fatigue failure between the board and the motor. Wires with fatigue failure can behave perfectly well when the wire is in one orientation and fail when the angle of the wire changes slightly. The fatigue failure is going to happen precisely where the wire gets bent back and forth at a point. This is why I recommend Cable Chain, to spread out the bending of the wire. You can print your own cable chain if you get your printer working (search for it in the forum).

Let me review what most of us mean by the extruder motor "clicking." Specifically, that refers to a situation where the load on the motor is greater than the available torque. If you put a mark on the end of the shaft, you would see the shaft starting to turn a small fraction of a turn in the "extruding" direction, compressing the plastic, then suddenly lose torque and hop back that fraction of a turn (one or more full steps of the motor). Then it usually repeats. It's caused by the things I mentioned before. Is this what you meant by "clicking"? By the way, it doesn't do any harm at all to the motor; there are no gears inside the motor that are being forced to skip. It's just electromagnets and permanent magnets in there.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby mattvl » 2016-Dec-Mon-21-Dec

No, all of the motors are acting the same. I tried unplugging and replugging the motors, to no avail. It doesn't seem like moving the wires around does anything.

Yeah, that's exactly what it was doing with the motor clicking, but it would also do it without any filament getting fed in.

Here is another video that shows more clearly what is going on:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8zZ9 ... zQ2a0pOdEU

The motor start working somewhat smoothly at the start, surprisingly, but then locks up. I moved the camera around a bit to make sure it captured the sound, but the end shows you how the axle is moving very slowly.
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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Dec-Mon-22-Dec

Boy, I'm just about beat down on this one!

By any chance are the motors or the motor driver chips getting very hot? So hot you can't hold your finger on them? If the driver chips get that hot, they shut themselves down (maybe waking up for a few milliseconds at a time out of every second?).
So if your motors were all turned off and the chips cool, then when you ask for motion they would heat up and shut down. But once you've asked for motion in any axis, the motors tend to stay powered-up for at least 30 seconds or more, even if the motors are not moving. Which would mean that once they enter this shutdown state, they would stay shut down for a fair amount of time.

The commands to change the motor drive current are documented on Printrbot's site. If overheating is your problem, take whatever percent the settings are at and cut it in half. If you go too low, then you'll have skipping (or clicking).
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby PxT » 2016-Dec-Tue-13-Dec

Agreed with this hypothesis. Can you post the output of "M909"?

You want the outputs to look something like this:
X: 70.0 Y: 70.0 Z:60.0 E: 60.0

If the values are way off you can set them with:
M907 X70 Y70 Z60 E60

And then "M910" to save
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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby mattvl » 2016-Dec-Tue-20-Dec

I messed around with the current already and didn't get any change. I just changed them to the settings you had down and still not getting any change. So far no noticeable heat on the motor chips.

EDIT: I just tried the extruder motor for the first time and it's just doing the skipping like it did with the old board (no filament in it at the time). Is it possible that this is a power supply issue or something? Although it doesn't really make sense to me that on the old board all the other motors worked except the extruder...I have no idea what's going on.

What are the chances that they preloaded the wrong firmware on the board and that's causing all the issues? When I press home it seems to end up going more towards the middle of the bed...

EDIT: Okay, so according to this https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 8g/pubhtml the max positions on mine were set to the simple's max offsets...I'm starting to think they put the wrong firmware on here. Would that potentially result in these issues?
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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Dec-Wed-07-Dec

I have experimented with bed dimensions in the past, and nothing has resembled this behavior. Basically, if you send a command to the printer that would take the nozzle outside the boundaries known to the firmware, the nozzle goes to the edge of the legal zone and simply stops moving. No sound, no creeping, just a dead stop.

However, when asked to go outside the bounds, the firmware loses track of the true location because a different part of the firmware thinks that it didn't stop.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
User avatar
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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Dec-Wed-12-Dec

The power supply is easy enough to check, just measure the voltage with the heated bed turned on. The connections on the older boards could burn and increase their resistance, but this has (supposedly, don't have one) been resolved with the Rev F.

Did you check that the extruder gear's not rubbing or otherwise restricted, and the bearing or second gear move freely.

M503 displays the current settings, i.e. the ones in RAM that you're using. M501and M502 load (and apparently display) stored and default settings. I'd suggest starting over to make sure there isn't something random in the settings from EEPROM. First do an M503 (to show the starting point), copy/paste it here. Then revert back to the defaults and write them to EEPROM:

M502 ; load the default settings
M500 ; write them to EEPROM

Do a power cycle (off, wait 20 +/- seconds after the fans, etc. quit, on), then do an M503 to display the current settings that were retrieved from EEPROM when the power came on. You'll need to reset the bed size, digipots, and whatever else you changed but you'll be starting from a known point. Once that's done do an M500 to save the adjusted settings back so they'll survive a power cycle. After any adjustments do another M503 and post it here.

On the old board, while it's possible, I'd think it was unlikely the extruder driver was damaged. Much more likely that something like moving the bed too fast with the power off hit the X or Y drivers.

Your video sounds strange; I'd guess something's binding, the motor steps/mm are too high, acceleration's too high, etc. (or the travel speed in your interface program is too high, although those low looking max feedrates should override that), or something along those lines. Wait until after the EEPROM reset, since it should fix any screwed up saved settings. Also, what does your slicer's stsart gcode look like, just to cover that base?

Kirk
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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Dec-Wed-13-Dec

RetireeJay wrote:You'll need to reset the bed size, digipots, and whatever else you changed but you'll be starting from a known point.


Just a minor point: the digipot settings are not included in the M500 series of EEPROM commands. Those D/A chips have their own, separate little EEPROM and are programmed with commands in the M900's
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
User avatar
RetireeJay
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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby mattvl » 2016-Dec-Thu-22-Dec

Pre Power Cycle:

> M503
< echo:Steps per unit:
< echo: M92 X80.00 Y80.00 Z2020.00 E96.00
< echo:Maximum feedrates (mm/s):
< echo: M203 X125.00 Y125.00 Z5.00 E14.00
< echo:Maximum Acceleration (mm/s2):
< echo: M201 X2000 Y2000 Z30 E10000
< echo:Acceleration: S=acceleration, T=retract acceleration
< echo: M204 S3000.00 T3000.00
< echo:Advanced variables: S=Min feedrate (mm/s), T=Min travel feedrate (mm/s), B=minimum segment time (ms), X=maximum XY jerk (mm/s), Z=maximum Z jerk (mm/s), E=maximum E jerk (mm/s)
< echo: M205 S0.00 T0.00 B20000 X20.00 Z0.40 E5.00
< echo:Home offset (mm):
< echo: M206 X0.00 Y0.00 Z0.00
< echo:PID settings:
< echo: M301 P22.20 I1.08 D114.00
< echo:Min position (mm):
< echo: M210 X0.00 Y0.00 Z0.00
< echo:Max position (mm):
< echo: M211 X152.00 Y152.00 Z152.00
< echo:Bed probe offset (mm):
< echo: M212 X20.00 Y0.00 Z0.00

Post Power Cycle:

> M503
< echo:Steps per unit:
< echo: M92 X80.00 Y80.00 Z2020.00 E96.00
< echo:Maximum feedrates (mm/s):
< echo: M203 X125.00 Y125.00 Z5.00 E14.00
< echo:Maximum Acceleration (mm/s2):
< echo: M201 X2000 Y2000 Z30 E10000
< echo:Acceleration: S=acceleration, T=retract acceleration
< echo: M204 S3000.00 T3000.00
< echo:Advanced variables: S=Min feedrate (mm/s), T=Min travel feedrate (mm/s), B=minimum segment time (ms), X=maximum XY jerk (mm/s), Z=maximum Z jerk (mm/s), E=maximum E jerk (mm/s)
< echo: M205 S0.00 T0.00 B20000 X20.00 Z0.40 E5.00
< echo:Home offset (mm):
< echo: M206 X0.00 Y0.00 Z0.00
< echo:PID settings:
< echo: M301 P22.20 I1.08 D114.00
< echo:Min position (mm):
< echo: M210 X0.00 Y0.00 Z0.00
< echo:Max position (mm):
< echo: M211 X250.00 Y250.00 Z254.00
< echo:Bed probe offset (mm):
< echo: M212 X20.00 Y0.00 Z0.00

It doesn't look like anything's changed to me. I'm going to give it another shot and see if something has miraculously changed.
-so it's acting the same. When it does go somewhat smoothly it does a little shuffle where it goes a couple cm's smoothly, pauses for a fraction of a second, couple cm's, pause, couple cm's, etc.

Here is the starting GCode. I haven't changed anything with that in awhile as far as I know, so I'm not even sure what each line means anymore.

G21
G90
M82
M107 ;START WITH FAN OFF
G28 X0 Y0
G28 Z0
G29
G92 E0
G1 F200 E3
G92 E0
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Re: Motors Getting Hung Up: New Metal Plus Board

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Dec-Fri-08-Dec

Did you do an M502/M500 between those power cycles?

What else is running on that PC? Use the task and resource managers to check for background tasks and CPU/memory/disk activity when you're trying to print. Make sure you close any other open programs. The print/pause/print suggests background activity that can be caused by other things on your computer.

Also, for grins, run an offline windows defender virus scan (it's under settings/defender towards the bottom of the page) followed by a full scan. Virii are frequent scapegoats, but occasionally it's really true. Are you running an aftermarket virus scanner? It's not necessary unless you frequent suspicious sites, illegal downloads, like to click on random email links, etc. Likely you aren't.

Add a small upwards move to your start gcode rather than extruding right on top of the bed. That's not this problem, but you're risking jams since the plastic has nowhere to go.

Kirk
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