Glass Build Plate

Glass Build Plate

Postby Jdublu » 2014-May-Sun-22-May

I tried using a thin sheet of glass to aid with some PLA warping issues. I discovered that I can't use the inductive auto leveling probe, the nozzle hits the glass before the sensor triggers. I thought about gluing a thin shim of aluminum in each corner of the glass plate, but was looking for some other ideas.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby PxT » 2014-May-Mon-00-May

Maybe try the cheapest (i.e. thinnest) aluminum foil you can find. A tiny square glued in each corner should do it.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Vapor » 2014-May-Mon-11-May

What about the aluminum tape they use for taping off hvac systems. Not cloth duct tape, but the actual metal stuff.

Or you can buy copper tape too. I don't know what thickness you'd need? Might need a couple of layers?
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-May-Mon-11-May

Do you think there is enough metal in a mirror for the sensor to pick up?
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Jdublu » 2014-May-Mon-12-May

Jon Lawrence wrote:Do you think there is enough metal in a mirror for the sensor to pick up?


Unless it was silvered on the top surface, it's going to have the same problem a clears sheet of glass does on top of the aluminum build plate.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby evanalmighty » 2014-May-Mon-13-May

I'm thinking you could get a thin aluminum plate to place flat on top of the glass. Let it do its thing and pull that alu plate out before the print starts. Obviously you'll have to account for the thickness of the plate in the Z offset settings or whatever that you need to do with the auto bed leveling.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby KDog » 2014-May-Mon-14-May

I was wondering about this same thing. I have an 8x8 aluminum and heated bed but can put a 12x12 piece of glass on it to print PLA without heating. Are there metallic spray paints that would work?
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Jdublu » 2014-May-Mon-15-May

This is why I posed the question. Good answers like these are making me start to think about this in a different way. I've got a fake gold leaf kit floating around in the garage somewhere that uses copper leaf. It's extremely thin, to the point I don't think it will create much if any offset. I'll try putting a square in each corner of the glass plate where the probe takes it's measurement.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby KDog » 2014-May-Thu-02-May

Has anyone checked to see if the sensor will sense the mirror with the silver (non-reflective) side up?
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby KC_703 » 2014-May-Thu-16-May

Can you just offset the Z-axis by the thickness of the glass?
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby KDog » 2014-May-Thu-16-May

The sensor triggers when it is 2-4mm away from the metal surface depending on what it is made of. The hot end is normally placed so that the tip is about 1mm below the bottom of the sensor so you have about 3mm to play with. If your glass is 3mm thick (like mirror tile) then your hot end will hit the glass before or at the same time as the sensor triggers.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby thawkins » 2014-May-Thu-20-May

KDog wrote:The sensor triggers when it is 2-4mm away from the metal surface depending on what it is made of. The hot end is normally placed so that the tip is about 1mm below the bottom of the sensor so you have about 3mm to play with. If your glass is 3mm thick (like mirror tile) then your hot end will hit the glass before or at the same time as the sensor triggers.


try using copper, it seems to detect that about 5-7mm away, you could put strips of copper coated blank pcb at the edges.

i think its related to the conductivity of the material, the more conductive the stronger the induced magnetic fields.

i have been looking for a copper foil to back my glass with.

looking at ordering some of this.

http://www.amazon.com/Copper-Foil-Shiel ... pd_cp_MI_1
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Jon Lawrence » 2014-May-Thu-20-May

thawkins wrote:i think its related to the conductivity of the material, the more conductive the stronger the induced magnetic fields.

It is related to the sheer mass of the material. Thicker materials will pick up sooner than thin ones.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby thawkins » 2014-May-Fri-02-May

Jon Lawrence wrote:
thawkins wrote:i think its related to the conductivity of the material, the more conductive the stronger the induced magnetic fields.

It is related to the sheer mass of the material. Thicker materials will pick up sooner than thin ones.


my 0.0347 mm copper pcb coating picks up before my 2.6 mm aluminium plate,

i will do some tests today and see if i can work out what the exact difference is.

if i detect onto the aluminium bed i get about 4 mm, if i lay a copper plate on top of the bed the detection goes up to about 7mm.

I suspect it may be a combination of the two. conductivity and mass. they do state that the based on the material detection height varies.

http://www.pidtechinsights.com/2012/03/ ... ns-part-1/

bizarrely this shows copper as the worse, which is contrary to my experiences with the pcb's, i'm going to try a thin
sheet of galvanized iron to see if that has an effect. (its also very very cheap and available)
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby thawkins » 2014-May-Fri-02-May

thawkins wrote:
Jon Lawrence wrote:
thawkins wrote:i think its related to the conductivity of the material, the more conductive the stronger the induced magnetic fields.

It is related to the sheer mass of the material. Thicker materials will pick up sooner than thin ones.


my 0.0347 mm copper pcb coating picks up before my 2.6 mm aluminium plate,

i will do some tests today and see if i can work out what the exact difference is.

if i detect onto the aluminium bed i get about 4 mm, if i lay a copper plate on top of the bed the detection goes up to about 7mm.

I suspect it may be a combination of the two. conductivity and mass. they do state that the based on the material detection height varies.

http://www.pidtechinsights.com/2012/03/ ... ns-part-1/

bizarrely this shows copper as the worse, which is contrary to my experiences with the pcb's, i'm going to try a thin
sheet of galvanized iron to see if that has an effect. (its also very very cheap and available)


This may explain it (from the article)....

Thickness of the target is another factor that should be considered. The sensing distance is constant for the standard target. However, for nonferrous targets such as brass, aluminum, and copper a phenomenon known as “skin effect” occurs. Sensing distance decreases as the target thickness increases. If the target is other than the standard target a correction factor must be applied for the thickness of the target.

so galvanised iron or stainless steel it is then......
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby EddB » 2014-May-Fri-11-May

I havent played with it at all yet. I am wondering if you could set it to run the sensor outside your print area and at specific points. Scan the 4 anchor bolts mounted with steel fender washers. It would add a few millimeters.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby redwood » 2014-May-Fri-16-May

How about some conductive paints? Don't know how it will handle with a heated bed though if that is something you have. There are a bunch of these on the market.

http://www.bareconductive.com

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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby andychn » 2014-May-Sat-15-May

Its a function of metallic mass with ferrous metals working best. I have a plate of cold steel which perfectly matches the 4 screw heads and is held by clips. 4-5 HEAVY coats of Aquanet and i got the perfect build plate... &... my z offset for the sensor is MUCH larger... -5.12!
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Jdublu » 2014-May-Fri-09-May

I tested my theory about putting some fake gold leaf on a glass build plate in each of the sampling spots used by the inductive probe. It worked just fine. I'm guessing it's copper leaf, since it's called faux gold, but it worked at approximately the same sensing distance as the aluminum bed. I had to tweak the z distance slightly downward, so maybe the range was just a hair greater.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Mach-Chris » 2014-May-Fri-09-May

I did the same thing but instead of leaf i put a utility blade between the alum and lexan i was testing. it would seem that the more magnetic the material, the further the induction will carry through an inert object.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Baedarlboo » 2014-Jun-Wed-19-Jun

This is awesome stuff, I've got a 18"x12" sheet of glass from an old scanner I could use as a bed. Now only if I could print out that far! :mrgreen:
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby redwood » 2014-Jun-Tue-12-Jun

How about using the back of a mirror as the bed surface? If you have a small mirror you can test to see if the sensor picks it up. I don't know how the coating would hold up to the heat or scraping.

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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby KDog » 2014-Jun-Tue-19-Jun

The sensor doesn't pick up the mirror surface. Too bad.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby thawkins » 2014-Jun-Tue-23-Jun

KDog wrote:The sensor doesn't pick up the mirror surface. Too bad.


0.4mm stainless steel sheet cut from a baking tray, does the trick nicely, gives at least 5mm pickup distance on my sensor. works fine through glass.

make sure the sheet is flat against the glass.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby redwood » 2014-Jun-Tue-23-Jun

Print and bake cookies at the same time. I like it.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Dabhaidh » 2014-Jun-Mon-23-Jun

Found this on Instructables "I Pad glass as 3D printing build platform" It may be the answer for a glass build plate and auto leveling.
www(dot)instructables(dot)com/id/IPad-glass-as-3D-printing-build-platform/
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby thawkins » 2014-Jun-Tue-00-Jun

redwood wrote:Print and bake cookies at the same time. I like it.


Pancake bot :-)
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Dudemeister » 2014-Jun-Wed-11-Jun

You don't need to go through all that, what you need is to adjust the prober to account for the offset in the glass thickness.

The probe "looks" through the glass at the surface underneath. So what you need to do is change it's position, then home it in using the M212 command. In my case, I loosened the probe and moved it down until the light came on, then using a feeler gauge I started to do the adjustments. You can use the M212 Z"xxx" to home in until it's right. In my case I ended up with the probe about 2mm above the glass, and a M212 value of Z-0.5.

Don't forget to save the settings each time using the M500 command.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Jdublu » 2014-Jul-Wed-14-Jul

My probe could not sense the aluminum build plate from a great enough distance. When I adjusted the sensor, it was touching the glass.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby dmaxx67 » 2014-Jul-Wed-14-Jul

How thick is the glass my 4mm amico sensor works with my 2.5mm glass on top of 1/8" aluminum plate. Now it is only like .2 mm above nozzle but she working like a charm
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby thawkins » 2014-Jul-Wed-19-Jul

Jdublu wrote:My probe could not sense the aluminum build plate from a great enough distance. When I adjusted the sensor, it was touching the glass.


I have experimented with a bunch of materials under glass with inductive sensors, to date the one constant that gives the best detection range is copper pcb, a blank copper pcb with the copper side up, placed under the glass, can be detected at a further distance than the aluminum bed alone.

Also because the copper pcb is deformable, it can be bonded to the glass, which makes the flat underside plane of the glass the plane detected by the probe, not the surface that it is sitting on.

I have just scored a thin 0.03mm sheet of PEI plastic, so I will be trying out this weekend, making a sandwich of aluminium, pcb, glass and then PEI. The only thing i have to solve is how to do the bonding and which adhesives to use.

The aluminium is just for strengh, and to support and spread heat from the heatbed, so it could be wood if heatbed is not required. But i suspect PEI needs to use a heat bed even with PLA if you want to make use of its temperature selective adhesion and release characteristics.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Radair » 2014-Jul-Wed-19-Jul

I know this takes glass out of the mix, but I have had great success this week running PEI taped to aluminum with 3M 468MP. I then have the heat bed sandwiched between the aluminum and a piece of 1/4" plywood. I am getting very consistent temps and everything sticks like glue to the PEI.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby KD6HQ » 2014-Jul-Thu-02-Jul

Here's a wild thought. Take the aluminum bed down to your local pottery club and see if they can add a very thin glass coat to the bed. I would think that once melted on it should stick very well. The question is how thin can they get it? ;)

7/3/14
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby thawkins » 2014-Jul-Thu-02-Jul

Radair wrote:I know this takes glass out of the mix, but I have had great success this week running PEI taped to aluminum with 3M 468MP. I then have the heat bed sandwiched between the aluminum and a piece of 1/4" plywood. I am getting very consistent temps and everything sticks like glue to the PEI.


What plastics and temps are you printing with?
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby thawkins » 2014-Jul-Thu-02-Jul

Radair wrote:I know this takes glass out of the mix, but I have had great success this week running PEI taped to aluminum with 3M 468MP. I then have the heat bed sandwiched between the aluminum and a piece of 1/4" plywood. I am getting very consistent temps and everything sticks like glue to the PEI.


Do you think this stuff would work, I have limited access to most products.

http://www.olx.ph/index.php/view+classi ... tion,1-1,1
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby KD6HQ » 2014-Jul-Thu-03-Jul

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/e ... 763&rt=rud

Temp Resistance-- Lower (deg F) -40 Degree Fahrenheit
Temp Resistance -- Upper (deg F) 180 Degree Fahrenheit
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Dudemeister » 2014-Jul-Thu-15-Jul

If you're goig to use a hated bed, I think there are problems you're going to have to tackle as well. I just spent a few days trying to make my probe work properly with my heated bed, and 'm having all kinds of issues.

My setup consists of the Alu bed, then on top f it there's a PCB heater MK1, and on top of the PCB, there's a thin piece of glass (2mm). The PCB heater is suspended above the Alu bed on 4mm standoffs.

The probe triggers OK, about 2.5-3mm above the glass, the problem is that once I enable the bed heater and the extruder, it's affected by the heat to the point of no longer working. It triggers and stays triggered (light on) until the temperature goes back down or I pull the plug.

Other than changing to a completely different type of probe (I've been looking at an IR proximity probe), I don't think I can solve this problem, so for now, I'll replace it with a basic end stop.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby RetireeJay » 2014-Jul-Thu-15-Jul

Just curious... is it possible for you to put the heater underneath the aluminum bed, and rest the glass directly on top of the aluminum? That would shield the probe from the electromagnetic field created by current flowing in the heater.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Dudemeister » 2014-Jul-Thu-16-Jul

Yeah, it's doable, but then it would take the PCB a long time to heat up the aluminum, which in turn would have to heat up the glass. Right now it takes about 3-4 minutes to get the build surface up to 90°C, which is very nice, so I'd rather go to a mechanical stop than give that up.

As mentioned before I did find some IR sensors, which I should be able to mount further away from the build surface where they're not affected by heat
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby dmaxx67 » 2014-Jul-Thu-18-Jul

Dudemeister my setup is heated bed the aluminum then glass and it doesn't take much longer to heat the glass
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Dudemeister » 2014-Jul-Thu-19-Jul

dmaxx67 wrote:Dudemeister my setup is heated bed the aluminum then glass and it doesn't take much longer to heat the glass

What do you use for a heater? Also how do yo measure the temps on the top of the glass?

I did try that particular order before, and it takes like 10-12minutes to get the top of the glass to about 85°C. Even them, it's not very evenly heated. The glass directly on top of the PCB heater is the best solution (for me).

Anyway, Are you using the probe? How is it (or is it) misbehaving when you turn on the heater?
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby dmaxx67 » 2014-Jul-Thu-22-Jul

I use a 6x9 PCB off eBay.Clamped under my 1/8" plate. Glass on top. I only heat to 70c. I don't take measurements but with my hand but my prints are sticking and glass smooth on bottom. I'm using an amico probe 4mm. No effect with heater on
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby thawkins » 2014-Jul-Thu-23-Jul

Dudemeister wrote:Yeah, it's doable, but then it would take the PCB a long time to heat up the aluminum, which in turn would have to heat up the glass. Right now it takes about 3-4 minutes to get the build surface up to 90°C, which is very nice, so I'd rather go to a mechanical stop than give that up.

As mentioned before I did find some IR sensors, which I should be able to mount further away from the build surface where they're not affected by heat


Thats how I have my bed setup

from the bottom to the top

1. PCB Heat Bed tracks to the top.
2. 2.6mm Aluminum (2x1.3mm plates)
3. 0.45mm blank PCB copper side up, to act as sensing plane for inductive sensor
4. 1.5mm picture glass

Normally I have blue tape or kapon on top of that, I have just got a 0.03' (~ 0.75mm) of PEI to put on the top.

The stack takes about 3-4 mins to get up to 110 degrees, I'm driving it with a 30A 15v supply. However I am aware that the thermistor is inside the hole on the pcb heater, so Im thinking of creating a channel by cutting a slot in the bottom most of the two alu plates and running the thermistor along that, or line up a hole in the alu plates to get the thermistor (a micro glass bead type) through the alu plates and pcb sensor plane until it touches the underside of the glass plate. That will give me far better readings of the actual temp on the surface.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Radair » 2014-Jul-Fri-07-Jul

I just thought I would share a shot of my bed sandwich and the results.

This is the sandwich: (1/4" ply, heater(traces up), aluminum plate, .003" PEI)

IMG_0593.jpg


This is an ABS piece printed on it:

IMG_0598.jpg


The Bed takes maybe 10 minutes to get the PEI to 90 degrees measured with an IR Thermometer. My thermistor is between the heater and the ply. It registers within 2 degrees of the IR temp. I cannot say how much I truly love this setup. I can print a part and it takes just a wipe of acetone to prep the bed for the next print. Hope this helps someone out there.

Also the Inductive Leveling Probe works perfect with this setup. Heater on or off.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Dudemeister » 2014-Jul-Fri-19-Jul

Here is a pic of my heated bed sandwich. On the Maker Ed. the aluminum plate is what keeps the bed square. I could use the heater PCB, but that is a lot more fragile, and tends to bend under stress.

Additionally the RepRap/Prusa recommendation for the PCB heater is to use the opposite side as the top (traces on the bottom), and to attach the thermistor on that side (the MK1 doesn't have a central hole for the thermistor). I also stood the surface off the ALU bed. No sense in getting that hot when all I need is the PCB and the glass on top of it.

I took quite a few readings on the temps, and the nice thing about this setup, is that it gets up to temp in a hurry. I used an IR thermometer to read various spots on the top surface. To cut down the reflectivity which can create erroneous readings, I put flat black dots on top of the glass where I was taking the readings.

Based on the thermistor readings, the bed gets up to 90°C in about 3 minutes. At that time the glass is off by 8-10°C. It takes an additional 35-45 seconds for the top of the glass to reach 90°C.

I purchased a couple of Fotek sensors (they were cheap), so I'll give those a try once I get them, I also looked at IR sensors, but they all seem to have a very narrow operating temperature 40-80°C, and a wide margin of error +/- 1mm. So I'll wait for the Foteks for now.

If all else fails, the basic end stop switch works just fine, and in my particular case, the bed is pretty level as is.

PB Simple Maker Heated bed.jpg
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby KD6HQ » 2014-Jul-Fri-23-Jul

Radair

Where did you get your PEI from?

I like the idea of just wiping it off with acetone instead of
replacing the tape every so often.


Question for anyone:

Has anyone tried using some heat transfer paste between the
heading element and the aluminum plate?

thanks
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Radair » 2014-Jul-Sat-04-Jul

I picked it up on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013H ... UTF8&psc=1

I have not tried any thermal compound as of yet. I was pulling the bed often enough that it would have just been a horrible mess to deal with. I might give it a try now that my surface is more "permanent".
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby thawkins » 2014-Jul-Sat-08-Jul

Radair wrote:I picked it up on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013H ... UTF8&psc=1

I have not tried any thermal compound as of yet. I was pulling the bed often enough that it would have just been a horrible mess to deal with. I might give it a try now that my surface is more "permanent".


Cool that is exactly the same amazon part i got.

What is tbe best way to cut it, would a box cutter be the best.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Radair » 2014-Jul-Sat-08-Jul

thawkins wrote:What is tbe best way to cut it, would a box cutter be the best.


Yes, I used a fresh blade and it took about 5 passes along a straightedge to get through it. Once I had it adhered to the bed I cleaned the edge up with a small file.
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby KD6HQ » 2014-Jul-Sun-14-Jul

What did you use for the adhesive?

thanks
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Radair » 2014-Jul-Sun-14-Jul

KD6HQ wrote:What did you use for the adhesive?

thanks


3M 468MP 3/4"
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Radair » 2014-Jul-Sun-14-Jul

thawkins wrote:
What plastics and temps are you printing with?


Sorry I missed this one.

PLA 55
ABS 90
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby PrinterNinja » 2014-Jul-Sun-18-Jul

I manufacture a laminated flexible printer plate that I've sold to many Printrbot users (among others). It has outer skins on it that are less than 1mm thick. I think it would be possible to add in a layer of this material from Amazon: Copper-Foil-Shielding-Tape-Guitars
under the outer skins. I've had several requests for a plate for the Metal machines, but the sensor issue discussed here has been a roadblock. I'm wondering if someone here might be willing to test it for me if I build one. Someone in the US preferably to save my shipping expense.

Any takers? (Only need one...)

Wayne H
PRINTinZ
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby KD6HQ » 2014-Jul-Tue-09-Jul

For those of you that have been using PEI for a while now, is it still working as well as you thought it would?

Are you using it with or with out a heat bed?

What type of filaments are you using it with?

thanks
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Re: Glass Build Plate

Postby Radair » 2014-Jul-Tue-09-Jul

KD6HQ wrote:For those of you that have been using PEI for a while now, is it still working as well as you thought it would?

Are you using it with or with out a heat bed?

What type of filaments are you using it with?

thanks


Over a month now and it is still working great.

It needs to be heated to work.

I have used it for ABS and PLA with great success.
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