The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby jwatte » 2013-Aug-Mon-00-Aug

I'm using blue tape (I found a roll of 1.5" in the garage.)
I tape it to the bed, and then I wipe it clean with a bit of isopropyl alcohol 91% on a paper towel (not bathing in it!)
The initial layers stick very well, and I have the nozzle at a height where it smooshes the extruded plastic, like I've heard it should.

However, when the print is done, it's really hard to get the tape off the bed, and it's *impossible* to get the tape off the bottom of the print.
Is that's really how it should be?
Am I doing something wrong?
I'm using 200 degree hotend (according to the controller -- don't know how precise the thermistor is.)

Is there a better option for prints without blue-tape bottoms? Would a sheet of glass without heat, just wiped clean, work?
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The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby mrsamnc » 2013-Aug-Mon-08-Aug

I have struggled with this as well (and with new filament colors, still do at first). It's a fine line of having your nozzle "just right" above your bed. I use paper and have learned the "feeling" of it being right by the amount of resistance. My OCD tendencies keep telling me to get the feeler gauges out and quit using the paper, but I haven't... yet. :)
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby ahaer » 2013-Aug-Mon-10-Aug

Some things to try:
- lower the heat of the 1st layer - I'm using 195 but some parts still stick well
- experiment with first layer height - use whatever works best for you
- Try skipping alcohol wipe down. I've never done that myself so I'm not sure how much of a difference that makes one way or the other.

For parts with a large contact area I use a mini crowbar to lever up a corner, then use a small spatula (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000V ... UTF8&psc=1) to lift up the rest.

I also read another post where someone used a air can upside down to hit the part with some freon to cool it down. Never tried it myself - not sure about fumes either
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby Mochaboy » 2013-Aug-Mon-10-Aug

I had this happen. It got so bad, I had to remove my bed to pull the part off so I wouldn't damage the rest of the printer.

What I found handy is having a set of needle nose pliers, and I will gently lift a corner. Just enough to lever it off at which point I'll move on to another corner.

I ditched the wood printing plate for an aluminum one specifically because of how hard it gets beats on. I added a heatbed I got off ebay and can print directly to the aluminum plate with just a few swipes of a glue stick.
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby mrsamnc » 2013-Aug-Mon-10-Aug

Mochaboy wrote:...I added a heatbed I got off ebay and can print directly to the aluminum plate with just a few swipes of a glue stick.


*Now remembers why he has glue sticks in the house* ;) I knew someone used them with a PB so I got them (along with a ton of sharpies for coloring PLA filament) a while back, but had forgotten who/how.
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby jwatte » 2013-Aug-Mon-11-Aug

I do have some 6"x1/4" 6061T6 stock laying around, so making an aluminum bed would be pretty simple. Perhaps I should book some time on the CNC mill...
I wonder, if I sandblast the bed, maybe I won't even need a glue stick -- it may be naturally "grippy" enough for the bottom layer.

To be clear: The main problem I'm having is getting the tape off the plastic piece. Getting the tape off the wooder print board works.
I use a wide chisel to pry in under the piece and then lift off all the tape from the bed.
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby Mochaboy » 2013-Aug-Mon-12-Aug

jwatte wrote:I do have some 6"x1/4" 6061T6 stock laying around, so making an aluminum bed would be pretty simple. Perhaps I should book some time on the CNC mill...
I wonder, if I sandblast the bed, maybe I won't even need a glue stick -- it may be naturally "grippy" enough for the bottom layer.

To be clear: The main problem I'm having is getting the tape off the plastic piece. Getting the tape off the wooder print board works.
I use a wide chisel to pry in under the piece and then lift off all the tape from the bed.


Personally I think smooth bottoms are over rated. Anything you can do to increase the grip factor of the top layer is ok in my book. People printing in Taulmann nylon have to print to a rough garolite base or impregnated canvas cloth, so you an imagine the patchy bottoms that come off those.

I want to add though that the glue stick is a stop gap - I think there are better first layer adhesives for PLA, I just haven't gotten around to testing them all and that's what I had just lying around. I still have to print layer 1 at 5mm speed onto a heatbed for it to stick without pulling on direction changes, but once it settles - holy F! does it hold.

As for pulling tape off - remember it's a porous fiber tape - between the heat and molten properties of the thermoplastic, I wouldn't be surprised if some cross linking happened which would make it generally impossible to remove from the plastic. It's such a subtle balance between all the different factors, in other words - how much stick is enough yet not TOO MUCH - and that's where all the experimentation is going on right now.

I may try borosilicate glass at some point, but I knew with all the levering we were going to be doing to remove prints, it was just a matter of time before I snapped a piece of glass, and that would make me a very sad panda.
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby RetireeJay » 2013-Aug-Mon-12-Aug

Mochaboy wrote:People printing in Taulmann nylon have to print to a rough garolite base or impregnated canvas cloth, so you an imagine the patchy bottoms that come off those.


You are right that the base of an object printed on nylon is rough.

But... Garolite is not "rough"; it's quite glossy. However, I doubt that people who print nylon on Garolite end up with the mirror-smooth bottom surfaces that I've seen from ABS printed on Kapton tape. It's too hard to get the nylon off the Garolite for that kind of mirror finish to remain.

[Masonite is a relative of Garolite that has one side glossy and the other side rough. I printed nylon on Masonite once (the glossy side, but lightly sanded) and pulled away lots of brown fibers embedded in the object.
That's why I went to canvas: the fibers are white, just like my nylon. And not as many fibers come away with the object.]

By the way, the canvas is completely untreated, non-impregnated; I bought it at a fabric store.
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby m0j01 » 2015-Aug-Sun-20-Aug

Hey bud, Have you tried using Acetone on the bottom of the prints, specifically where the tape is, and slowly rubbing the tape off?

I am not sure if this will help or exacerbate the problem. Also, soap and water can cause glue to dissolve. I am curious what mechanisms are making the tape stick to the ABS. They might have diffused into each other a bit.

Soap and Water
or
Acetone

Those would be my suggestions.
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby IB3D » 2015-Aug-Sun-21-Aug

jwatte wrote:...To be clear: The main problem I'm having is getting the tape off the plastic piece. Getting the tape off the wooder print board works. I use a wide chisel to pry in under the piece and then lift off all the tape from the bed.


How old was the roll of tape you found in the garage? I too have had this problem; but only after attempting to print on the 3M sheet from Printrbot and then getting lazy when going back to painter's tape without removing the plastic sheet which elevated my platform higher for the first layer.
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby DavidTheNerd C » 2016-Mar-Thu-23-Mar

I do have this issue, but you should remember that it is usually better to have adhesion overkill rather thatn very little adhesion. I like tons of adhesion so i replace my bed tape every 2 or 3 full area prints.
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby frankv » 2016-Mar-Fri-01-Mar

So, don't use blue tape. And/or don't use IPA to wipe it clean.

FWIW, I had the over-sticky blue tape problem. I just use ordinary white masking tape (painters tape), wiped down with methylated spirits (methyl/ethyl alcohol mix). Cheaper than blue, cheaper than IPA, and I can print a dozen times on the tape before it needs replacing.
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby eckerput » 2016-Mar-Fri-12-Mar

Adhesion is a balancing act of enough to stick during the print and not too much that you can't unstick it. You are obviously at the too much sticking mode. Try less IPA, faster wipe, or none at all. Less heat on the bed will help too. Note you may have to adjust the amount of sticking depending on the print (more bed contact means you can get away with less adhesion), filament, batch of blue tape, print speed, etc. It's a constant balancing act and never perfect.
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby jwatte » 2016-Apr-Wed-01-Apr

Ha! I come back to complain that my Simple (with home-cut wood kit!) finally died (vibrated itself off the table during a print and killed itself.)
And this old thread of mine is tops of the forum. Funny.

So, "don't use IPA" doesn't quite work for me, because then the filament doesn't stick at all.
I found that a quick wipe with a light touch, leaves enough release agent on the top of the tape, while taking off enough that the print sticks.
It's more an art than a science, though...

I got a Simple Metal as a replacement, and it came with the Z probe calibrated 1/4" off and gouged the bed.
After that, and a necessary firmware update (the board as shipped could basically not print at all) it's actually working fine!
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby bbrown64 » 2016-Apr-Wed-13-Apr

I use a feel gauge to set the gap for the nozzle. I use .13mm as the thickness. I never could get the feel of using paper as a thickness gauge. Then I use the 1mm plastic gauge to set up the Z-Probe. Then go into the software to adjust the Z-Probe offset. I had problems with prints sticking to blue tape as well. It stuck so well that it would peal up the kapton tape. I solved the problem by purchasing a Zebra Plate. Now I have no problems what so ever, with prints sticking. I print with PLA and the temps are 200/ 60. My layer height is .2064 with a .8 shell thickness.
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Re: The PLA sticks too well to the blue tape!

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Apr-Wed-15-Apr

jwatte wrote:And this old thread of mine is tops of the forum. Funny.

And by a poster who's possibly a spammer (register/post in old topic,/hasn't come back since, they like to post in old topics to build time and counts), and hopefully nobody'll notice them. If he really is then the joke's on him, since it kickstarted a useful discussion.

Like bbrown64 says hed to bed distance is critical for getting a good, but not too good, stick. With these newfangled alien probers you can simply adjust the Z offset rather than tweaking your Mitutoyu micrometric adjuster, but the principal's the same.

@watte, I hope you saved the electronics, motors, extruder, etc. from the floor cruncher so you can build a new printer from the parts.

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