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Printrbot Talk Forum • View topic - How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby EvaFlorian » 2016-Jul-Sun-05-Jul

Hi everyone,

We are Eva and Florian, 2 product design students at the academy of arts. We’ve bought an old 3d printer of a friend for a good price. We played around with it for a couple of weeks and decided to customize and improve it. To be able to print more types of materials we’ve bought the Printrbot “1.75mm Ubis Ceramic Style Hot End” + the “Printrbot Alu Extruder v2” at our local 3d-printer shop.

We discovered that our printer has an output of 24 volts towards the printer head. While the ubis hot end only needs 12 volts input. We figured we could use a resister to solve this problem.

Does anyone know which resister we need, or how many Amps (or Watts) the ubis hot end requires?
Maybe there is another creative solution we don’t know of…

We really appreciate any help you can provide!

Greetings from Arnhem :mrgreen:
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How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Jul-Sun-06-Jul

Speaking as an electronics engineer, I would have to say that putting a resistor in series with your hot end is not an easy or optimum solution. The resistor would have to have the same resistance as the hot end (so it will divide the voltage equally with the hot end). Now because it will see both the same voltage and the same current as the hot end, it will be dissipating the same amount of power. In a sense, your simplest solution to finding the right resistor is simply to get another hot end, and wire the two of them in series. If the hot end you select uses a heater cartridge (like the E3D's and some Ubis models) instead of a custom nichrome heater built into the body of the hot end (like the "ceramic" Ubis) then you only need to buy another heater cartridge. But beware of where you put it; it will be very hot, perhaps over 300C because it doesn't have the "heat sink" of the hot end connected to it.

A better solution would be to run the hot end from a 12 Volt supply. What kind of electronics does your printer have? Is it a RAMPS setup? Maybe you can run the hot end separately from the stepper motors or other parts. I'm sure the electronic "brain" of your printer does not really need 24 Volts; it regulates the incoming supply down to 5V internally to run the control chips. Maybe you could even run the whole printer from 12 Volts; stepper motors generally don't require 24V.
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby thawkins » 2016-Jul-Sun-07-Jul

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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby frankv » 2016-Jul-Sun-16-Jul

I am NOT an electronics engineer, so would welcome Jay's or anyone else's comment on this...

Maybe the easiest option would be to put a step-down regulator (e.g. ) between the hotend and the 24V supply? This example would handle the current needed by the heater, I think.
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Jul-Sun-17-Jul

The heater is pulse width modulated, rapidly turned off and on to control the power level. A DC-DC buck convertor probably will not work if it's inline between the extruder output and the hot end. I'd say definitely, but since I've never tried it we'll stick with about the same chance as a mosquito in a typhoon if used by itself.

However, might be workable if it was used to supply 12V to a solid state relay (SSR) controlled by the extruder output from the controller. A mechanical relay won't work because it won't switch fast enough, but an appropriately rated DC-DC SSR will.

What art academy are you attending? One of my daughters did some architectural research in the Netherlands last year while working on her masters.

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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Jul-Sun-18-Jul

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Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby thawkins » 2016-Jul-Sun-18-Jul

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-------------------------------
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Dual heated beds.
RAMPS 1.4 running Marlin 0.98
-------------------------------
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Jul-Sun-19-Jul

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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Jul-Sun-19-Jul

Going back to the OP, I note that they bought a "Ceramic Ubis" - which has a nichrome wire wound around the threaded metal tube inside the ceramic sleeve; it doesn't have a heater cartridge.

If, after all this discussion, they still don't want to supply the heater with 12V directly, they could measure the resistance of the hot end with an ohmmeter and buy a commercial 50 watt resistor with the same resistance to put in series. It will get very hot, so it needs to be put where the heat won't damage anything.

Or, maybe they could just go ahead and use 24 volts. I don't think there will be any problem with arcing, and the feedback loop should prevent overheating. This should work, BUT ONLY IF they are very careful about tuning the PID loop. They will be getting 4X the amount of power that the stock PID loop expects, so they've definitely got to re-tune it. My recommendation would be to give a very low setpoint, like 100C for starters, and use the PID Auto-tuning command to set the parameters for 100C. Then up it to 150C and tune again, finally tuning at 200C (if they are printing PLA). (Read up on auto-tuning in several posts in the forum, be sure to save the results to EEPROM with M500.)
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby thawkins » 2016-Jul-Sun-20-Jul

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Full Graphic display.
-------------------------------
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230mmx360mm bed
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Dual heated beds.
RAMPS 1.4 running Marlin 0.98
-------------------------------
Flashforge 3d Creator Pro
Dual Extruder
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby blort » 2016-Jul-Mon-12-Jul

the PID tuning is likely the best way to go for this. as Jay stated, you will want to start very low and work your way up to the desired temp tuning or you will burn up the hotend. With luck you would trip your maxtemp before doing any damage, but the ceramic ubis has a relatively low meltdown temp due to the PEEK lining of the heatbreak. if you exceed the meltdown temp even once, the hotend will be ruined totally.

if I were in your situation, I would toss the ubis hotend and all of its challenges (low temp, 12v, odd nozzles,nonserviceable design) and put your money into an e3d lite which natively has 24v heater cartridges, common ecosystem of nozzles, very replaceable and serviceable design. the lite still has the PEEK meltdown temp risks, but you will be less likely to encounter them when using a 24v heater with a 24v source.

you can easily use the lite or a v6 with the extruder that you have on hand (i do). there are many locking adapter plates and spacer kits that can help to easily secure a lite at the correct mounting position. if you are using the lite, you could even scavenge the thermistor from the ubis to skip having to reflash firmware as the temp ranges are effectively the same.
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Jul-Mon-12-Jul

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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Jul-Mon-21-Jul

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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby EvaFlorian » 2016-Jul-Wed-08-Jul

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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby frankv » 2016-Jul-Thu-13-Jul

And another option...

You could use a circuit like this to only turn on the heater for about 1/4 of the time.
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Jul-Thu-13-Jul

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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
"My next printer is..." Prusa i3 MK3, upgraded to MK3S
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby BobP » 2016-Nov-Mon-08-Nov

I might be a little late to the game as I see the original post was some time ago and I hope the problem has been solved but...just a thought-
Perhaps the 24 volt hot-end output from the printer control board could be fed into a voltage regulator IC such as an LM388T. This is a programmable voltage regulator IC with a 5 Amp rating (7 Amp surge). Maximum input voltage is 40 volts so it will be OK with the 24 volt system. Choose voltage setting resistors (see National Semiconductors application notes) to provide a 12 volt output. The LM388T is easy to mount but it must be used with a heatsink and its mounting tab must be electrically insulated as it is connected to the output terminal. Perhaps it could be mounted to a part of the printer's frame if the frame is metal.
This is an un-tried, un-proven suggestion.
As was mentioned in previous posts, it is not easy to throw away the equivalent of 200+ degrees of HEAT.

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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Nov-Tue-13-Nov

The extruder is controlled by rapidly turning it's voltage off and on (aka PWM, pulse width modulation), using a MOSFET on the Printrboard connected to ground, with the other side always hot.

Hmm, while my first thought was to reject an external voltage regulator because of this, it might work. Connect the regulator to +12 and a constant ground, then connect the regulated voltage side to the hot end and the switched ground. RJ is the real electrical engineer, I only played one in college. Perhaps he'll comment.

However an external SSR would most likely be the easiest and (from the user standpoint) simplest approach, short of using the right voltage hot end.

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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby RetireeJay » 2016-Nov-Tue-15-Nov

The idea of using a voltage regulator is attractive because then you don't have to match the resistance of the hot end in a voltage divider. But you still will be dissipating a lot of power. You'll need a big heat sink and maybe even a fan to keep it cool enough. Simplest solution is to find a spare laptop power supply brick (you can probably find one for free if you look around enough) and run the hot end off that 12V supply. (But all of this is probably out of date by now; presumably the OP has solved it some way.)
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby plexus » 2016-Nov-Wed-02-Nov

Wouldn't it be easier to change the hot end? say to an E3D. then you get a better hot end in the process.
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Re: How to connect a 12 volts hot end to a 24 volts printer?

Postby Mooselake » 2016-Nov-Wed-11-Nov

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