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Printrbot Talk Forum • View topic - Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Nov-Sun-16-Nov

I have been having problems with what I believe to be a slightly warped print bed on my Simple Metal, so I decided to try adding a glass plate, with copper foil patches placed on top of the glass to trigger the Z-axis probe.

The copper foil patches seem to trigger the Z-axis probe properly, so I thought I was home free. However, when I tried some test prints I found I had to significantly change the Z-axis offset (M212 commandI) to get decent first-layer adhesion, depending on where the print was located on the bed. If the print location was near the X/Y home position, then a Z-axis offset of -0.7 seemed to work great, but printing that same item in the far right corner required a Z offset of -2.0 - MUCH bigger than I had ever had to use with the original print bed.

Also, If I left the Z-axis offset at -2.0 (for a print in the far right corner) and then tried to print the same item near the X/Y home point, the extrusion head started cutting into the painters tape - badly!

Based on the above results, it seems the glass plate setup is tilted DOWNWARD for increasing X & Y, but I'm not sure why the 'auto-levelling' (actually more like 'software tilt correction') isn't compensating properly for this.

Moreover, when I moved the bed/print-head around manually, I got exactly the opposite results. When I moved the bed to the left (i.e. increasing X, I think) and/or the Y-arm toward the front, the print head started to score the painters tape. This implies that the print bed is sloped UPWARD for increasing X & Y.

I haven't been tracking these numbers, so I don't know if the difference between 0.88 at (10,143) vs 1.98 at (10,10) and (143,10) is significant or not


So basically, I'm completely baffled by what's going on here. I wrote all this up in a post with photos on my "Paynters Palace" blog (apparently as a new poster I can't post the URL, so please search for 'glass-print-bed-for-printrbot-simple-metal'). If anyone has a clue as to what is happening, I'd love to hear it. In the meantime, I guess I'll go back to printing on my original print bed, warps and all ;-).

Frank


Added Note: I went back and looked at the probe results from the last print attempt (the one that ran the extruder tip into the painter's tape).
14:38:46.107 : Bed x: 10 y: 143.00 z: 0.88
14:38:49.927 : Bed x: 10 y: 10 z: 1.91
14:38:53.989 : Bed x: 143.00 y: 10 z: 1.98
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Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby bbrown64 » 2015-Nov-Mon-08-Nov

I read someplace that when using a glass bed the "metal" that triggers the Z-Probe should be under the glass. I also read that a piece of thin galvanized sheetmetal cut the same size as the glass plate works well. Putting small tabs on the plate just to trigger the Z-Probe in certain places may not be the correct thing to do. The printer prints all over the bed so it should read all over the bed.
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby RetireeJay » 2015-Nov-Mon-09-Nov

BBrown, sorry to contradict, but...

(Speaking from a position of partial ignorance here, because I don't have a probe) I must say that I have definitely read about putting tabs of metal ON TOP of the glass for the very reason that the thickness of the glass prevents correct operation of the probe. That is, the probe can't see metal that far away, so it doesn't work when trying to "look through" glass.

And once the probe has checked its three points (using the G29 command) then it has finished its work. The probe itself is not being used at all during the print; only the data that it generated is being used. The three-point check "maps" a plane which the software then uses to "correct" the Z height all over the bed. So it's definitely not necessary to have the probe be "usable" anywhere except the three specific points where it does its checking.

I'm wondering if the Original Post problem has to do with the setup of the "Home" position and the location of Zero. Some Printrbots "home" to X = 0, Y = Max whereas others "home" to X = 0, Y = 0. If there is a mismatch between how the printer is homing and how the G29 zeroing is being performed, then maybe there could be a problem like the one observed, where the "correction" seems to be acting opposite to the desired effect. I'd say to review very carefully which direction Y moves when you give it a manual command to move in the positive direction, and where it "homes" to to make sure that your bot is set up consistently.
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby veng » 2015-Nov-Mon-10-Nov

The probe on my Simple Metal works very well, so I decided to add one to my MendelMax which has a glass bed followed with an aluminum heat spreader, then a thin cork insulator and finally the Al mounting plate. Because of the problems caused by glass, I chose a capacitive sensor. Because of the level shift issues, I used an NPN output, so this is not an apples to apples discussion of a Printrbot sensor. The sensor is being run at 5V which also may be an issue.

I found with strong enough Bulldog clips that the glass was bent. Clearly visible with a straight edge. Removing the clips and taping the glass fixed that but the take away is glass can be quite flexible.

After that, I ran statistics and found that the repeatability of the sensor is poor, specifically the standard deviatilon is too high. My best guess is that the spacing between the glass and aluminum varies and causes the capacitance to vary. Thus, I'd guess that neither a capacitive or inductive sensor will work alone, maybe tape in the corners will allow tramming.

However, I DO want to be able to measure over the entire bed as I know it is not guaranteed flat. Next I'll probably try dc42's optical sensor as it wiil work with any bed.

I'm also testing accelerometers as that should sense X. Y, Z limits and home positions possibly also allow direct motor tuning by sensing when the motors can't keep up. So far the first sensor will require more signal processing to eliminate the noise as I can't distinguish between tapping the bed and variations in motor movements.
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby Some Printr Noob » 2015-Nov-Mon-22-Nov

I have put aluminum tape under glass, and then have it all on top of a heated build plate. Glass is relatively thin at 2.5mm, but my probe does sense it. You'll probably have to adjust your Z axis offset to account for the glass though.
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby thawkins » 2015-Nov-Tue-03-Nov

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Nov-Wed-14-Nov

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby Some Printr Noob » 2015-Nov-Wed-18-Nov

Send a G29 command to the printer? That should do it.

I have my aluminum tape attached to the underside of the glass, fyi.
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Nov-Fri-21-Nov

I have just completed what I think is a pretty thorough investigation into this problem, and have posted all the gory details on my blog site 'Paynters Palace' . You can view the article there by selecting the '3D Printing' menu item and looking for the "glass-print-be-metal-part-ii" article

The bottom line appears to be that the vaunted Printrbot tilt correction feature isn't working very well (or at all), at least for my Printrbot Simple Metal :-(

Any thoughts and/or suggestions?

TIA,

Frank

PS - what's the deal with not being able to include off-site URL's? That seems unnecessarily harsh, and I'm sure no one here wants me to directly include the huge number of images and charts associated with the article ;-).
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby RetireeJay » 2015-Nov-Fri-22-Nov

You will be able to post off-site URL's after you have racked up a certain number of posts on the forum. It's not a huge number, but it helps keep spammers at bay. You wouldn't believe how many people (or robots) try to spam the forum. I'll fix the link for you.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
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Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Nov-Sat-07-Nov

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Nov-Tue-22-Nov

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby thawkins » 2015-Nov-Wed-04-Nov

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RAMPS 1.4 running Marlin 1.1.0
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Dual heated beds.
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Nov-Wed-09-Nov

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Nov-Wed-14-Nov

In the latest episode of my glass plate print bed saga, I decided to try and manually level the plate, thereby removing (as much as possible) the effect of the apparently ineffective and/or destructive Printrbot/Martin tilt correction scheme. I was able to (mostly) accomplish this, and I wrote up the results at http://fpaynter.com/2015/11/glass-print ... l-part-iv/

Frank
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby RetireeJay » 2015-Nov-Wed-14-Nov

So now that you have your bed level, just don't issue a G29 command at all. Instead, use G28 Z0. You may need to diddle with offsets somehow to get the right nozzle height. But then (hopefully) the Z axis worm gear won't move AT ALL during the printing of a given layer.
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Printrbot Plus operational January 2013
Brass threaded rods (5/16" X 18) & nuts for Z axis
GT2 belts & pulleys
Cable chain to reduce probability of fatigue failure in wires
E3D V5 Hot End, 0.4mm nozzle, also 0.8 and 0.25 in use occasionally
PB fan mount + 40mm fan -- using printed mount adapter, not the E3D supplied fan
Injection molded extruder gears
Optical Z "endstop" (custom designed and built)
Have used many pounds of T-Glase filament. Now also doing some work with Ninjaflex SemiFlex
Print on glass with Scotch Craft Stick or other glue stick
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Nov-Wed-15-Nov

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Nov-Wed-20-Nov

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby Mooselake » 2015-Nov-Fri-12-Nov

Check out RJ's dial gauge adapter. It wasn't designed for a Simple but the concept will introduce you to the next level of alien probe free printing. I can adjust my plywood plus within the tolerance of my digital gauge.

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Nov-Fri-16-Nov

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby Mooselake » 2015-Dec-Sat-17-Dec

Harbor Freight (ohh, the horror) isn't a bad place to get dial gauges from - I have their digital version and it works quite well. Being a tool junkie I have several of the cheap mechanical versions (4 or 5, something like that, from several sources but mostly Enco), also. In this application you're interested in repeatability (zero being in the same place), not accuracy (1.000 mm reading 1.000 mm), so the cheap versions should be adequate. An article I read a while back did some comparison tests, and while the cheap gauges didn't handle the drop tests like the expensive ones their accuracy was pretty close. You're not looking for submicron precision here, hundredths of a mm are fine. Mine was adjustable to within the 0.01 tolerance of the HFD.

OTOH, nothing beats the nice feeling you get when holding your Mitutoyo :)

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Dec-Sun-20-Dec

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Dec-Tue-18-Dec

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby blort » 2015-Dec-Tue-18-Dec

a mechanical Z probe could do all you want. you want to be able to Z 0 detect without magnetic/inductive/capacitive dependency. there are mechanical Z probe adapters for the simple metal on thingiverse if I recall.

disclosure : I am not using a mechanical Z probe as I am on the stock heated/kapton solution and the work to use zebra/PEI/borosilicate just doesn't seem to be worth it to me right now since what I have is working. I still have my non-heated bed and would be happy to pass it on down the line if you PM me and we can work out the shipping. free to a good home, but I am not paying to get it to anyone :)
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Dec-Tue-22-Dec

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Dec-Wed-21-Dec

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby blort » 2015-Dec-Wed-23-Dec

Clever!

has the relocate affected your print quality at all since you are no longer "really" sensing the bed but rather just running a Z endstop? I Really like the relocate that you have done and may do the same to mine. I have had problems with the Z sensor striking tall prints and that would neatly be fixed as you pictured.
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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Dec-Thu-09-Dec

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Re: Problems with glass plate on Printrbot Simple Metal

Postby paynterf » 2015-Dec-Thu-19-Dec

For anyone who is interested in the ongoing saga of the glass print bed, the whole story (so far) can be found on my blog site at 'Paynters Palace', aka fpaynter.com. See http://fpaynter.com/2015/12/glass-print ... al-part-v/ for the latest post ;-).

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